dislocated knee first day of MT

[FriedRice]

It was Crazy 88's Martial Arts Instructors and Coaches | Crazy 88 MMA Gyms
I didn't spar with them when I went there. My brother trains there and I went there to watch when he went training (FYI. I was on vacation). I didn't think they would just allow people to pop into training like that so I didn't bother to dress appropriate. But I watched the entire class and took mental notes, because at that time I was teaching kung fu. I watched advanced fighters (amateur fighters) spar against students that were no where near advanced skill levels

I know Crazy 88....that's a Lloyd Irvin affiliate, so they don't play around there. Were the advanced fighters cracking the lower levels, real hard or something? It's especially an iffy thing when you come into a rougher gym, especially during their sparring session. Much worse if it's full of fighters. The Fighter's Sessions are usually by invite only, but when they don't have enough then they'll take all the bodies that signs up. Many new dudes often come in mean mugging and crap, especially the big boys.

It's all about pecking order. It wouldn't look good if someone new came in and beats all the fighters. Sparring should be a competition. I hate losing. The only thing I would dumb down when sparring someone lower in exp. is the power. But I will still hurt their ego by trying out all sorts of The Matrix joints and hit them a lot. I'm still the one taking enormous risks of getting KO'ed as they're swinging hard.

Your Bro wouldn't be named Donnie would he?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I know Crazy 88....that's a Lloyd Irvin affiliate, so they don't play around there. Were the advanced fighters cracking the lower levels, real hard or something?

Nope. The advanced fighters still worked their techniques and hit at power level that the lower levels could fight. They also pulled their strikes or shifted the strikes off target when they saw that the lower level was going to just nailed. From my perspective it appeared that they would let the strike land solid if they thought the lower level was going to be able to put up some kind of defense. If they could tell that the lower level was going to get just get nailed then they would make sure the strike didn't land solid or they pulled the strike so that the little bit of power that the strike had wouldn't harm the student. Getting blind sided by a kick to the head will rattle a lower skill even if it's not a powerful kick. The problem is that advanced fighters soft hits still have considerable power even though they aren't trying to throw any power behind it. To me it seemed as if they were aware of that when they were sparring.

You could actually tell the skill level of the opponent by the intensity that advanced fighters would give. The day I signed up they were more than happy to let me have a go in the training session that day. I wasn't sure if my brother told me them that I trained Kung Fu or not so I don't know if the chance to spar against another system was of any interest. I know fighters in general will sometimes take strategies and approaches from others to use as part of their tool kit. Or they just could have been friendly and wanted me to experience their gym.

It's all about pecking order. It wouldn't look good if someone new came in and beats all the fighters.

Unfortunately this is EGO getting in the way. While it doesn't look good if someone new came in and beats all of the fighters (which that isn't going to happen at Crazy 88 their is a ceiling of how far my wins would have reached lol. Some of those guys are world champions). If they "lose" then it just means they have more room to get better and new stuff to consider when training and competing.

The only thing I would dumb down when sparring someone lower in exp. is the power. But I will still hurt their ego by trying out all sorts of The Matrix joints and hit them a lot.

Definitely. The great things about lower skilled opponents is that you can try new techniques without the fear of being knocked out for messing up. It would be a waste not to explore the system and your fighting abilities in a situation like that.

I'm still the one taking enormous risks of getting KO'ed as they're swinging hard.

Well if they are hitting hard enough to knock you out then I wouldn't do the matrix stuff lol.

Your Bro wouldn't be named Donnie would he?

Nope my brother is Sidney (guy in the black shorts).

 

[FriedRice]

Nope my brother is Sidney (guy in the black shorts).

Hey thanks a lot for clearing this up. For a moment there, I thought he was the White guy, haha. Your bro def. won that fight. Nice, he seems to be a Boxer + Muay Thai.

Are you still in the area? This July 21st, at Level Up Boxing.....I think in Bowie area (I've never been there).....they're having there "Spar Wars" where a bunch of East Coast gyms come by for sparring Boxing & Kickboxing. There's a lot of people from all levels. It's $10.

I should be around that time to go for the 1st time myself.

Level Up Boxing & Fitness

 

[FriedRice]

You could actually tell the skill level of the opponent by the intensity that advanced fighters would give. The day I signed up they were more than happy to let me have a go in the training session that day. I wasn't sure if my brother told me them that I trained Kung Fu or not so I don't know if the chance to spar against another system was of any interest. I know fighters in general will sometimes take strategies and approaches from others to use as part of their tool kit. Or they just could have been friendly and wanted me to experience their gym.

Hey, I train with plenty of Kung-Fu cats to steal their stuff too, and it does work very well to throw of purist Muay Thais. Like all that Boxing your bro was using.....shoulder rolls, low guard, etc. all that joint works and these MT's at my gym tries to tell me I'd get clocked & KO'ed, bs. I steal stuff from Wing Chun dudes too. I've been using some very subtle WC techniques to setup my power shots and it's working extremely well vs. purist Nak Muays.

Unfortunately this is EGO getting in the way. While it doesn't look good if someone new came in and beats all of the fighters (which that isn't going to happen at Crazy 88 their is a ceiling of how far my wins would have reached lol. Some of those guys are world champions). If they "lose" then it just means they have more room to get better and new stuff to consider when training and competing.

Nah, nothing wrong with ego. "Check your ego at the door"....that sign, that's just baloney man. Just about every TMA gym I've been to, to spar, has ego. If I'm the new guy and I do too well, then usually their big dogs come by to try me out and we go to, near war....once we realize who's better, then we both chill out and everyone there knows where they stand....everything then gets taken down many notches....as what was needed proving, has just been proven....and we're friends. In a fighting gym, like Boxing, MT, MMA...then the heat is turned up even higher.

Definitely. The great things about lower skilled opponents is that you can try new techniques without the fear of being knocked out for messing up. It would be a waste not to explore the system and your fighting abilities in a situation like that.

Well if they are hitting hard enough to knock you out then I wouldn't do the matrix stuff lol.

This is how I improved my game by a lot though, by taking huge risks of getting KO'ed.

 

[JR 137]

Double post

 

[JR 137]

Definitely. The great things about lower skilled opponents is that you can try new techniques without the fear of being knocked out for messing up. It would be a waste not to explore the system and your fighting abilities in a situation like that.

The opposite is also true in our dojo. A higher rank shouldn’t dominate you and shut down everything you try to do. A higher rank is expected to work with you. They’ll show you why it didn’t work with a higher level of control and restraint than lower ranks. The higher rank is expected to “fight down” to the lower rank’s abilities; don’t overwhelm them and punish every little mistake, but stay just above their ability.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey thanks a lot for clearing this up. For a moment there, I thought he was the White guy, haha. Your bro def. won that fight. Nice, he seems to be a Boxer + Muay Thai.

Are you still in the area? This July 21st, at Level Up Boxing.....I think in Bowie area (I've never been there).....they're having there "Spar Wars" where a bunch of East Coast gyms come by for sparring Boxing & Kickboxing. There's a lot of people from all levels. It's $10.

I should be around that time to go for the 1st time myself.

Level Up Boxing & Fitness

Unfortunately I'm down south in Georgia. I visit him from time to time, but I think next year I'll be traveling more. As for my brother he's a wrestler that punches and kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just about every TMA gym I've been to, to spar, has ego.

yep, that's the irony about that. Many of them have an unhealthy amount of Ego to the point of arrogance. Some are only friendly if they feel that others are paying their system great respect, but say one opinion about what you think and they get offended and think the worst of you. It is what it is, and not every TMA gym is like that thank goodness. Maybe 1 out of every 20 TMA schools have some people who are actually nice and not putting on a fake show of kindness.

If I'm the new guy and I do too well, then usually their big dogs come by to try me out and we go to, near war.

yeah, I'm going to make a note not to spar with you lol.

 

[JR 137]

I was going to ask you about that again, thanks.

The injury happened 23 months ago.

This grinding in the knee that sounds like gravel inside, I didn't notice until like 15 months ago. It's in the injured knee and it could have made that noise since the injury, but I just didn't notice nor checked the knee like that to hear it.....just happened to, one day....and kept checking it periodically.

Before the injury, it was always my other knee (right) that was the weaker one as it was the one doing most of the offense in training. But it made no noises.

I thought I replied to this, but I guess not...

23 months is way too long to be dealing with this. It tells me 2 things

A. Whatever you injured hasn’t healed, such as meniscus, cartilage, or ligament

B. Whatever you injured has healed, but it wasn’t rehabbed properly (if at all) and you’re dealing with the issues from that. Whenever there’s a significant injury, your nervous system and muscles stop working in specific ways to prevent further injury. When this happens, you get muscle atrophy (muscle going away, such as forearm muscles shrinking while in a cast) and diskenesis (nerves don’t fire right, so you don’t use the joint as you’re supposed to).

Or A and B. See an orthopedist and don’t leave without a good understanding and a plan. If you tell him/her that it’s really effecting your work and you’re contemplating changing career because of it, they’re typically quite more receptive and will take it seriously. In my experience, PTs are far better with patient education than physicians. They typically have far better people skills than orthopedic surgeons on average.

Best of luck with it all. And no, they’re not treating you a certain way due to insurance. They wouldn’t see you if they didn’t take your insurance, and the clinicians typically have no idea what insurance you have. They’ve got office people to handle all of that stuff so they don’t have to deal with it.

 

[FriedRice]

I thought I replied to this, but I guess not...

23 months is way too long to be dealing with this. It tells me 2 things

A. Whatever you injured hasn’t healed, such as meniscus, cartilage, or ligament

B. Whatever you injured has healed, but it wasn’t rehabbed properly (if at all) and you’re dealing with the issues from that. Whenever there’s a significant injury, your nervous system and muscles stop working in specific ways to prevent further injury. When this happens, you get muscle atrophy (muscle going away, such as forearm muscles shrinking while in a cast) and diskenesis (nerves don’t fire right, so you don’t use the joint as you’re supposed to).

Or A and B. See an orthopedist and don’t leave without a good understanding and a plan. If you tell him/her that it’s really effecting your work and you’re contemplating changing career because of it, they’re typically quite more receptive and will take it seriously. In my experience, PTs are far better with patient education than physicians. They typically have far better people skills than orthopedic surgeons on average.

Best of luck with it all. And no, they’re not treating you a certain way due to insurance. They wouldn’t see you if they didn’t take your insurance, and the clinicians typically have no idea what insurance you have. They’ve got office people to handle all of that stuff so they don’t have to deal with it.

OMG, I wished I read this 2 years ago and researched a lot more about this. A, but especially B. I always thought that most rehab was BS. Man this sucks, I guess I did this to myself. I usually research the hell out of things. Also that these Corporate owned health & dental operations are now modeled to cut costs and quick in & out, they just don't seem to want to talk to patients that much any longer. Thanks again for your help.

 

[JR 137]

OMG, I wished I read this 2 years ago and researched a lot more about this. A, but especially B. I always thought that most rehab was BS. Man this sucks, I guess I did this to myself. I usually research the hell out of things. Also that these Corporate owned health & dental operations are now modeled to cut costs and quick in & out, they just don't seem to want to talk to patients that much any longer. Thanks again for your help.

Some rehab is BS, and this is coming from a rehab guy. In significant injuries, and after surgery, rehab is critical. As long as you didn’t get butchered by the surgeon (they botch stuff every now and then), IMO the rehab is just as important as the surgery itself. You can have god’s gift to orthopedic surgeons do a perfect ACL reconstruction. If you don’t rehab it right, it’s not going to work out well. I’ve seen that too.

With some surgeries, you’re better off starting rehab BEFORE the surgery. I’d “prehab” all my ACL people before surgery. The better they went in, the better they came out. Same for several other surgeries.

But yeah, people want PT for quite a few ridiculous things that’ll be just fine with time. It’s a combination of the injury itself, the severity, AND what the person does for a living.

 

[FriedRice]

yep, that's the irony about that. Many of them have an unhealthy amount of Ego to the point of arrogance. Some are only friendly if they feel that others are paying their system great respect, but say one opinion about what you think and they get offended and think the worst of you. It is what it is, and not every TMA gym is like that thank goodness. Maybe 1 out of every 20 TMA schools have some people who are actually nice and not putting on a fake show of kindness.


yeah, I'm going to make a note not to spar with you lol.

Nah, I'm very respectful in person. I just have fun on the internet. I think it's like my alter ego or something. I don't hit people hard and usually am the one taking that 1st or 2nd hard hit (out of nowhere/wasn't agreed to beforehand) before I do the same back.

 

[FriedRice]

Unfortunately I'm down south in Georgia. I visit him from time to time, but I think next year I'll be traveling more. As for my brother he's a wrestler that punches and kicks.

He's certainly built like a wrestler (and a truck). He was just manhandling that other dude.

 

[JR 137]

OMG, I wished I read this 2 years ago and researched a lot more about this. A, but especially B. I always thought that most rehab was BS. Man this sucks, I guess I did this to myself. I usually research the hell out of things. Also that these Corporate owned health & dental operations are now modeled to cut costs and quick in & out, they just don't seem to want to talk to patients that much any longer. Thanks again for your help.

Sorry. Part 2...

Most of the physicians HATE the whole corporate-like atmosphere. They’re being pushed by the bean counters to be as “efficient” as possible, meaning get in and get out to the next patient. They bill the same amount for an office visit if they spend 5 minutes with you or 30 minutes. The docs hate it, but it’s becoming the only way to stay afloat in the doctors business is to join these groups.

And now with all the records being electronic, they don’t even look at you 90% of the time they’re taking to you. They hate that and hurrying up just as you do, believe it or not. There’s a few money hungry guys who don’t want to talk, but most of them are good people once you get past that “I’m Dr. So and So” front.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don’t put too much stock into the surgeon didn’t care due to insurance. They’re going to get paid, and most have no idea what your insurance is; their office people handle that stuff. I’d chalk it up to the guy just being a douche bag. There’s certainly no shortage of them around. I’ve got quite a few stories of their ways, including a guy I told my father NOT to see, but he did anyway.

There’s no way anyone would miss a complete ACL rupture on an MRI. When it completely tears, it doesn’t get cut in half and flop around, so to speak; it explodes. When it ruptures, there’s nothing left but a small stump, kind of like the stump left on a clam shell after you’ve pulled the clam out. On an MRI, you’d see no trace of an ACL, hence making missing it impossible.

I’ve never heard of an “ACL edema.” That’s a new one to me. If you had/have ACL damage, you either partially tore it, or what is quite rare in my experience (not sure how truly rare it actually is) is you may have an avulsion if the ACL, which is basically the ACL pulling itself partially off the bone, either taking a layer of bone with it or not. I’ve only seen one of those.

As far as I know, the ACL doesn’t repair itself very well, if at all. Hence why I said everyone I saw with a partial tear would’ve been better off with a full rupture. I’ve rehabbed them, and quite honestly it was a waste of everyone’s time. It’s ok for an office type person who plays bar league softball a few Sundays a year, but that’s about it IMO.

There’s really no way for me to tell what’s going on in your knee without putting my hands on it and watching you walk around. What you described as far as how it happened could lead to anything - ACL, MCL, LCL, meniscus, articular cartilage, etc. The MCL and LCL repair themselves, the ACL, PCL, meniscus and articular cartilage typically don’t.

“Locking” of your knee puts up a meniscus red flag, as does instability somewhat. The instability, especially when pivoting/turning red flags ACL damage and subsequent muscle atrophy. But that’s all just spitballing to be honest.

See an orthopedist. Ask him questions. Don’t let him yeah yeah yeah you. They typically think you know what they mean or that you won’t underst if they get technical. Tell them what you do for a living (teach MA?) and it’s hindering you. Tell him it feels like it’s getting to the point where you can’t work anymore. Ask for a referral to a physical therapist. If he says you don’t need one, ask why.

It’s hard describing how these guys’ brains work. I’ve been around a lot of them, so it’s easier for me to weed through and see the nonsense. It’s also easier for me to communicate with them than most people off the street.

Edit: Last thought - primary care doctors suck at this stuff, no matter how well intentioned they are. If you need a referral from your primary doc, don’t take no for an answer. You’ve been dealing with it for long enough.

I'll add a thought to this. Find a primary care doc who specializes in sports medicine. I stumbled upon one and was amazed at how different his approach (and understanding) is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That one sucks. But it typically heals itself if you rest it and stay within a pain-free range of motion for several weeks. Same with the MCL.

Why do these heal, but the ACL doesn't? Any idea?

 

[JR 137]

Why do these heal, but the ACL doesn't? Any idea?

The alignment of the fibers. MCL and LCL are flat like a rubber band, and the fibers run straight along the length of the ligament. When they tear, it’s like a cut across the ligament. The ends typically touch or are close enough to touch. They scar up and heal.

ACL and PCL’s fibers are kinda braided like a rope. When you cut a rope, it unravels and shreads. Same for the ACL and PCL. There’s nothing but shreads floating around, with just a little stump left on the bone, like what’s left after you take a clam out of a shell. The ends can’t possibly touch each other to repair; they’re way too far.

At least that’s what I was taught in college.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some rehab is BS, and this is coming from a rehab guy. In significant injuries, and after surgery, rehab is critical. As long as you didn’t get butchered by the surgeon (they botch stuff every now and then), IMO the rehab is just as important as the surgery itself. You can have god’s gift to orthopedic surgeons do a perfect ACL reconstruction. If you don’t rehab it right, it’s not going to work out well. I’ve seen that too.

With some surgeries, you’re better off starting rehab BEFORE the surgery. I’d “prehab” all my ACL people before surgery. The better they went in, the better they came out. Same for several other surgeries.

But yeah, people want PT for quite a few ridiculous things that’ll be just fine with time. It’s a combination of the injury itself, the severity, AND what the person does for a living.

Sometimes rehab can even avoid surgery (did for my forearm muscle tear 2 years ago). I think most of rehab is purposeful and useful. There are bits that aren't backed by clear clinical studies, but the exercise portions seem to be well-tested, and I can certainly say I've gotten a lot of help in the last couple of years from both range of motion focus (stretching and movement) and muscle strength/stability focus.

 

[JR 137]

Why do these heal, but the ACL doesn't? Any idea?

As far as cartilage...

Most of cartilage is what’s known as an extra-cellular matrix. The cells make hyaline, elastin, etc. and basically spit it out to form cartilage. Inside the matrix, you have very few cells sitting inside holes (called lacunae). So other than a few cells, cartilage isn’t actual living tissue. I guess you could say it’s like hair or nails - stuff made by cells. Because it’s not made of cells, it can’t repair itself when torn. The cells inside the cartilage have no way of knowing the cartilage is torn.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He's certainly built like a wrestler (and a truck). He was just manhandling that other dude.

Yeah he's a beast. One of the guys at the gym was telling me that someone tried to out grapple him in the ring and had to learn "don't try to out wrestle a wrestler." His son is a beast too.