discussion of techniques

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yet again, this thread is a discussion of stylistic responses, not how applicable they may or may not be

When it comes to application, there are no guarantees. No example can be offered than someone can't poke holes in. This is especially true with knives.

But by reading different stylistic responses to various attacks, we can learn more about how other styles approach things and, in turn, may gain some more depth into how we approach them ... if we keep an open mind.

Mike

Mike

You read my mind! I'll be back after I train.

:asian:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I am simply relaying what real life knife attack is like. It is nothing like what most MA folks think it is. It is seldom "a thrust from this angle" or "a slash from that angle" . If ypu want to pretend that is how knife fight is really like, go right ahead. What do I care?

I have been stabbed, cut, slashed with long knives, short knives and even a spear. But, hey, what do I know? Afterall, those BOOKS written by SENSEIs or MASTERS who have never have anyone coming to them with a real knife wanting to spill their guts, must be telling the truth!

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I am simply relaying what real life knife attack is like. It is nothing like what most MA folks think it is. It is seldom "a thrust from this angle" or "a slash from that angle" . If ypu want to pretend that is how knife fight is really like, go right ahead. What do I care?

I have been stabbed, cut, slashed with long knives, short knives and even a spear. But, hey, what do I know? Afterall, those BOOKS written by SENSEIs or MASTERS who have never have anyone coming to them with a real knife wanting to spill their guts, must be telling the truth!

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

I didn't notice anyone arguing with you.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I am simply relaying what real life knife attack is like. It is nothing like what most MA folks think it is. It is seldom "a thrust from this angle" or "a slash from that angle" . If ypu want to pretend that is how knife fight is really like, go right ahead. What do I care?

I have been stabbed, cut, slashed with long knives, short knives and even a spear. But, hey, what do I know? Afterall, those BOOKS written by SENSEIs or MASTERS who have never have anyone coming to them with a real knife wanting to spill their guts, must be telling the truth!

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

So you got speared, you must of been in the pen. Thats not the same as the street. Theres no where to run much less the ability "to fight your fight".

With the attacker continuing to slash. I addressed that earlier before you even brought it up. Thats what taking control of the wrist is all about. He can't slash or stab if you control his wrist movement. It dosen't matter how you stop his wrist and take control of it, but it would work much better if you new what to after you did stop his "stabbing or slashing" arm movement.

I'm not trying to argue with you. We seem to agree about half of the time, and thats pretty good!

But you assume that knowbody else has ever "really fought" and you also think the same of "our" Sensei and Sifu. Dosen't make sense at all. You relate to competion so I think you will understand this. There are "reasons" why Tank Abbot loses more than he wins.

"ALL" arts take time and practice to be able to use them. We could say the same for Muy Thai and Western Boxing too.

As far as knife fighting and reality. If you train in "decent" martial arts you will have a chance to survive. If you don't train in the martial arts, you will have less of a chance if any of surviving.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
1: the crazy unskilled knifer.

I'm assumming I'm very cramped, enough so that I can't get around him. I want to throw anything and everything at him, if there is nothing I'll take my coat or shirt off and whip it at him or throw it because I probably am gona need a distraction to get the knife. I would then slap the knifehand inside with my left wial stepping left to get out of the blade path, and meet it with a horizontal elbow. On the elbows rebound I would use my right hand to peel the knife out. If I still have control of the arm I would getmy right hand on his wrist and left hand/forearm/elbow on his tricep and pull him off ballance and into whatever keeped my from running.

2: The crazy skilled knifer.

This one sucks even more.. he's close so I don't have alot of time.. if I can move back or to the side to keep out of range, I will. If I can't I would block the hit with my forearm in tight, basicly trying to minimise dammage, and throw a thrust kick to create distance, hopefully I can kick him to a side(if I'm in a good position) and run. I would try to get a weapon if at all posable, and using it to keep him from a fas advance try to get around him or try to draw a long attack I can deal with without as much risk.

If you were able to get your jacket off, that will work.

Its really dangerous for any kind of a block when your attacker has a knife. I know if I had the knife a guy tried to block, I would re-direct my thrust at the arm and the same with the kick, his leg would get stabbed. The focus ( for me in my mind) is stop the the attacking arm without getting cut and the rest will happen so fast, what you know will come into play.


I think its time for another new scenario.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If I'm not mistaken, a knife fighter will have to stick his arm out at some point to score a hit/cut (assuming he doesn't simply throw the knife at you). I'm not saying he will keep it flailing out there, but to put a knife into you, he will have to use his arm.

I know it's very, very difficult to get the disarm, and I really doubt I could get it on the first or second strike (or third) especially the one I described. You can only do the disarm, when the disarm "presents itself."

Mainly, I was talking about parrying the strike, and an "ideal" disarm. I have not been in a knife fight. But from my limited knife sparring experience, I think I can parry a knife thrust some of the time. The way you make it sound, it's completely hopeless, and I should just go and present my belly to be slashed.

Perhaps criticisms of individual techniques should be kept to personal messages.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

What are some of the "commonly" known knife disarms? I just want to know, to see if the ones I've learned are considered "common" -- they tend to come from Kali, which is pretty blade oriented.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
What are some of the "commonly" known knife disarms? I just want to know, to see if the ones I've learned are considered "common" -- they tend to come from Kali, which is pretty blade oriented.

The most common knife disarm that I've seen is what we call the "thumb base disarm." Get hold of the base of the thumb, pinch the tar out of it, and apply leverage against the knife (either side of the blade or the handle) to strip it out.

This concept can be applied numerous ways. The most common variation that I've seen is the "wrist lock" version. You get their blade hand in a standard wrist lock position, then strip the knife out.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Yeah. Those are what I have mostly learned. Would you consider these techniques to be a guarantee to be filleted?


I wanted to know what J. Napalm considers common knife disarms, so I know what "doesn't work."

BTW: pesilat, any comment for a response to the knife attacks mentioned?

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Yeah. Those are what I have mostly learned. Would you consider these techniques to be a guarantee to be filleted?


I wanted to know what J. Napalm considers common knife disarms, so I know what "doesn't work."

BTW: pesilat, any comment for a response to the knife attacks mentioned?

There are no guarantees that you will or won't be filleted

I mean, you could stand there, do nothing, and, by sheer luck, his blade hits your belt buckle, the knife slips in his hand, cuts his fingers, and he disarms himself while you're standing there with your finger up your nose Anything's possible. Just less than likely.

For me, training disarms isn't about training disarms. The disarms are the icing on the cake. They add some flavor to the training. But the cake is in learning methods of getting control of the weapon. Every time I train a disarm, I'm actually training to get control of the weapon. The disarm is bonus. If I train 10 disarms that all involved the same basic method of getting control of the weapon, then that's 10 repetitions of that basic controlling method. The disarms just keep things interesting.

As the saying goes, "disarms are incidental if not accidental."

But, if I never train the disarms, then I will have nearly no chance of getting them, even if they are sitting right there in front of me and the opportunity is dropped in my lap.

So, having said all that, here's some responses to the proposed knife attack

#1 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and to my left (female triangle) whlie bringing my right forearm to meet his descending forearm (with my right palm facing him to put the relatively safe region of my forearm toward the sharp part of the blade). Don't stop his energy, in fact, as I pivot clockwise, I bring my right hand down and my left hand up under his arm to look for a hyper-extension of his right arm. This motion also helps me keep his left hand (which may have another weapon) away from me and I'd be checking his right leg/foot with mine as well (probably trapping his right foot with my right foot). Hook my left hand in the crook of his right elbow and pull toward my chest. This should bend his elbow while also unbalancing him. As I bend his elbow with my left hand, I drive the blade toward him with my right hand, using my thumb on the back of his hand to aim the point of the blade at him. Hopefully I stab him with his own blade. Failing that, I would flow into a disarm if it were there, or I'd flow into a lock to maintain control of his blade hand/arm and take him down.

#2 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and left (female triangle) and cup my left hand under his elbow. Lift with my left hand (he's already going upward with the blade, I'm just adding a little more momentum now that I'm off line). Shoot my right hand under his right tricep, "ridge hand" to the far side of his neck while shooting my right arm as deep as I can, ideally getting my right shoulder under his right tricep and into his armpit with my right leg behind his right leg and our hips touching. Pivot my upper body counter clockwise to unbalance him (keeping the bicep/tricep area of his knife arm pinned tight between my right shoulder, my chin, and my left hand on his right bicep, and my right his compressing tight and applying whatever pressure it can to his left carotid). I continue pivoting while I sweep back with my right leg through his right leg ("biset luar" from Silat). As he falls, I go down with him and end up kneeling on my right knee just behind his back with his right arm still pinned between my right shoulder and my chin. Slide my left hand to the outside of his right forearm. Pull my head out while pushing to my left with my right shoulder and pulling with my left hand, bringing his arm across my left upraised knee where I can hyperextend it. As I hyperextend/break his right arm, I hit/grab his throat with my right hand to keep his mind off of countering/escaping the hyperextension/break. If he does manage to roll, then I lower my left knee, driving his arm to the ground with my left hand, then kneel on the forearm with my left knee and pry the blade from his hand with my left while hitting him as hard and fast as I can in the head/throat area.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
There are no guarantees that you will or won't be filleted

I mean, you could stand there, do nothing, and, by sheer luck, his blade hits your belt buckle, the knife slips in his hand, cuts his fingers, and he disarms himself while you're standing there with your finger up your nose Anything's possible. Just less than likely.

For me, training disarms isn't about training disarms. The disarms are the icing on the cake. They add some flavor to the training. But the cake is in learning methods of getting control of the weapon. Every time I train a disarm, I'm actually training to get control of the weapon. The disarm is bonus. If I train 10 disarms that all involved the same basic method of getting control of the weapon, then that's 10 repetitions of that basic controlling method. The disarms just keep things interesting.

As the saying goes, "disarms are incidental if not accidental."

But, if I never train the disarms, then I will have nearly no chance of getting them, even if they are sitting right there in front of me and the opportunity is dropped in my lap.

So, having said all that, here's some responses to the proposed knife attack

#1 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and to my left (female triangle) whlie bringing my right forearm to meet his descending forearm (with my right palm facing him to put the relatively safe region of my forearm toward the sharp part of the blade). Don't stop his energy, in fact, as I pivot clockwise, I bring my right hand down and my left hand up under his arm to look for a hyper-extension of his right arm. This motion also helps me keep his left hand (which may have another weapon) away from me and I'd be checking his right leg/foot with mine as well (probably trapping his right foot with my right foot). Hook my left hand in the crook of his right elbow and pull toward my chest. This should bend his elbow while also unbalancing him. As I bend his elbow with my left hand, I drive the blade toward him with my right hand, using my thumb on the back of his hand to aim the point of the blade at him. Hopefully I stab him with his own blade. Failing that, I would flow into a disarm if it were there, or I'd flow into a lock to maintain control of his blade hand/arm and take him down.

#2 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and left (female triangle) and cup my left hand under his elbow. Lift with my left hand (he's already going upward with the blade, I'm just adding a little more momentum now that I'm off line). Shoot my right hand under his right tricep, "ridge hand" to the far side of his neck while shooting my right arm as deep as I can, ideally getting my right shoulder under his right tricep and into his armpit with my right leg behind his right leg and our hips touching. Pivot my upper body counter clockwise to unbalance him (keeping the bicep/tricep area of his knife arm pinned tight between my right shoulder, my chin, and my left hand on his right bicep, and my right his compressing tight and applying whatever pressure it can to his left carotid). I continue pivoting while I sweep back with my right leg through his right leg ("biset luar" from Silat). As he falls, I go down with him and end up kneeling on my right knee just behind his back with his right arm still pinned between my right shoulder and my chin. Slide my left hand to the outside of his right forearm. Pull my head out while pushing to my left with my right shoulder and pulling with my left hand, bringing his arm across my left upraised knee where I can hyperextend it. As I hyperextend/break his right arm, I hit/grab his throat with my right hand to keep his mind off of countering/escaping the hyperextension/break. If he does manage to roll, then I lower my left knee, driving his arm to the ground with my left hand, then kneel on the forearm with my left knee and pry the blade from his hand with my left while hitting him as hard and fast as I can in the head/throat area.

Mike

Man, you always post good!
You're able to see the "WHOLE" picture rather than just the exterior of things.

Your diversified martial arts seem to not only blend and overlap well with each other but also compliment each other.

You have very good insight in the arts!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Man, you always post good!
You're able to see the "WHOLE" picture rather than just the exterior of things.

Your diversified martial arts seem to not only blend and overlap well with each other but also compliment each other.

You have very good insight in the arts!

Aw shucks, I just call 'em likes I sees 'em

But, yeah, I think my diverse background has helped me a lot. Specifically, though, my approach to the diversity has helped. Rather than looking for the differences (which are easy to find), I look for the similarities. In doing so, I gain not only more breadth, but more depth at the same time.

I learn to spot the underlying concepts and principles that they share instead of focusing on what they do differently.

I think this is one of the common pitfalls that people encounter when cross training.

Mike

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja

..... You're wrong. If you paid attention to my posts throughout all the threads that "we've" contributed to, then you would know that my instincts are grab or trap and thats exaxtly what it takes to stop the knife, to make that initial "stop" and transition to disarm. .....

..... Traditional Ju Jitsu is the answer, you just have to see it for what it is. ....

Disarm? In knife fight, the first rule is DISENGAGE. Your best shot at coming out alive is to cripple him and HAUL ***! (not necessary in that order!) lol

It is a matter of opinion, but using T JJ in a knife fight, is the quickest way to the morque. Any one who holds a knife already know how NOT to get grapped.

Just think about it. If you were to use a knife, are you NOT well aware of all the block and grap disarming techniques? Are you not going to slash and cut and kick and punch as well? ie blending the knife as if it is just part of your hands and legs? Or are you going to make the usual mistake of taking a big jab? Are you not going to becareful that you don't let that knife hand been intercepted and the knife taken away from you?

So what makes you think the thugs and criminals who practice daily among themselves to win fights DON'T already know all the block and grap techniques? Most MA guys have this hallucination that the criminals are big fat and lazy. That just aint the reality. The criminals study and practice real fighting daily too. Yes, they practice knife fighting daily to harden themselves. That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
....with the attacker continuing to slash. I addressed that earlier before you even brought it up. Thats what taking control of the wrist is all about. He can't slash or stab if you control his wrist movement. It dosen't matter how you stop his wrist and take control of it, but it would work much better if you new what to after you did stop his "stabbing or slashing" arm movement.....

So, what you are saying is you can just grap and trap, and that would "stop his wrist and take control of it"?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
If I'm not mistaken, a knife fighter will have to stick his arm out at some point to score a hit/cut (assuming he doesn't simply throw the knife at you). I'm not saying he will keep it flailing out there, but to put a knife into you, he will have to use his arm.

I know it's very, very difficult to get the disarm, and I really doubt I could get it on the first or second strike (or third) especially the one I described. You can only do the disarm, when the disarm "presents itself."

Mainly, I was talking about parrying the strike, and an "ideal" disarm. I have not been in a knife fight. But from my limited knife sparring experience, I think I can parry a knife thrust some of the time. The way you make it sound, it's completely hopeless, and I should just go and present my belly to be slashed.

Perhaps criticisms of individual techniques should be kept to personal messages.

Several points:
1. Don't get into a knife fight. (Duh! Obviously!) You will get slashed. And getting cut is one of the worst sensation in life. Ranks right upthere as feeling your car being crashed while you are sitting in there. Errrr...

2. If you have no option, the most effective way is, whether you grap or not, you must accompany your block, parry, or grap, or evasion with a STRIKE to the vital/weak points (groin, knees, solar plexus, throat, eyes etc). The dumbest thing is to assume you can arm wrestle the cold blade away with your jutjitsu ( sorry akja, )

If people don't care to listen to criticism of techniques, fine with me. I won't post then.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
So, what you are saying is you can just grap and trap, and that would "stop his wrist and take control of it"?

Not at all. What I'm saying is what you and maybe others too, are seeing this big elaborate lenthy technique of several movements to MAYBE get accomplished.

But that is so far from the truth. What it really is. The attacker is thrusting with the knife overhead. Stop that arm. Thats it. How we go about it will be differant, thats what we are are discussing and thats the point of the thread.

But no matter what. The answer for you and me is "stop that arm". Thats it. After stopping the arm, "our" training will kick in and we will go from there.

No matter what angle, a knife is a knife. I'm learning from these threads but it takes an open mind.

If you say no way, it will never work. Then it won't work, FOR YOU! Your defeated without even trying! Because your blinders are on. All you have to do is train. How you train is your choice. But in here you have the oppurtunity to pick the brains of thousnads of people. Some of them are as stubburn as me and you. So, there are plenty of people willing to "act right".

All you have to do is see the immediate task and act. If you we're to take control of the arm, then you should be able to "finish" in a fashion which is comfortable to you.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

There is a problem with presenting flawed techniques that will get people injured or killed.

I understand that you have to do something about that attacking knife hand. It is obviously ludicurous to simply give up. But you must take into account that the attacker already has contigency plan for your block and grap. It is very likely that as soon as you raise your arm to block or grap, that thrust or stab is turned into a slash filleting down your arm. Do you want to continue to bet your health and life that is not the case?

Fine. May be it is best to put things this way then.

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There is a problem with presenting flawed techniques that will get people injured or killed.

I understand that you have to do something about that attacking knife hand. It is obviously ludicurous to simply give up. But you must take into account that the attacker already has contigency plan for your block and grap. It is very likely that as soon as you raise your arm to block or grap, that thrust or stab is turned into a slash filleting down your arm. Do you want to continue to bet your health and life that is not the case?

Fine. May be it is best to put things this way then.

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

I understand exactly your point of view but if you don't stop the attacking arm, then your dead. It makes more sense to train.

Also learning the techniques "the long way" is a part of the learning process. If you only learn the shortcuts to everything, then your art is going to suck.

Its up to "us" as individual martial artist to make "our" arts work for us.

The techniques are not flawed. What you don't see is that in reality, we don't know how or which way the fight will go. But if you are limited to say Muy Thai, then you will lose because Muy Thai is not well rounded. My art is similar to JKD but by definition, it is not. But the reactions of a JKD player is what will save your life and thats the way I practice and teach.

If you want to grow as amartial artist, there is no getting around learning the techniques the "long way".

If you don't have faith in the MA that much you should go to this forum, you'll fit right in.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Disarm? In knife fight, the first rule is DISENGAGE. Your best shot at coming out alive is to cripple him and HAUL ***! (not necessary in that order!) lol

It is a matter of opinion, but using T JJ in a knife fight, is the quickest way to the morque. Any one who holds a knife already know how NOT to get grapped.

Just think about it. If you were to use a knife, are you NOT well aware of all the block and grap disarming techniques? Are you not going to slash and cut and kick and punch as well? ie blending the knife as if it is just part of your hands and legs? Or are you going to make the usual mistake of taking a big jab? Are you not going to becareful that you don't let that knife hand been intercepted and the knife taken away from you?

So what makes you think the thugs and criminals who practice daily among themselves to win fights DON'T already know all the block and grap techniques? Most MA guys have this hallucination that the criminals are big fat and lazy. That just aint the reality. The criminals study and practice real fighting daily too. Yes, they practice knife fighting daily to harden themselves. That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

We're discussing techniques not TRACK N FIELD!

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

A 9 inch hunting knife would actually be a god send for a disarm. A 2 inch spyderco or box cutter is a b***. Most disarms I've learned go against the flat of the blade for an ejection (usually towards the oponent's face if possible)

How do I deal with the posibility. 2 ways:

1)Make sure it's not a static block. I would think more of a parry, and get out of the way using footwork. A static block is a target, a moving parry is a moving target. Moving targets are harder to hit.

2) Make sure I used my outside forearm for the "block." At least I won't bleed to death (as fast), like a cut on the inside forearm.

A couple of things I want to add. True, disengaging is the best stratagy. But this is a worse case scenario, you can't run (I think it was in my original post). In this case, the next most important thing in my opinion is to control the weapon hand. I may be grabbing his hand, and get a cross in the face, but I would prefer that to a slash to the vitals. This also explains why I would prefer to go to his outside, it will limit the use of his other limbs.

Out of curiousity, Johnathan, do you visualize people's techniques before presenting your analysis?