Discussion concerning Presas Family Styles

[Mark Lynn]

1) On this point I have tried and tried not to bring dirty laundry onto this site that GM Remy specifically told me about a story where he told someone that he could be mad at his brother but no one else had the right. Since I heard the two of them talked before his death, I have been told that was behind them.

My point is that no other GM Ernesto guy is on the net trying to make the points that Tom is. It seems everyone else has a clue about how the two brothers felt and ended up resolving issues and how it seems there was some confusion on what is what and who was who.

Like I said I am not trying to disrespect GM Ernesto. That is the last thing I want to do. I am trying to walk a thin line of not bringing up old laundry and helping someone buy a clue that it seems everyone else has gotten out of simpel respect for one or both of the brothers.

So, Mark if I have offended you or anyone else who studies under GM Ernesto, that was not my intent and also not my desire. My apologies if they are needed will be offered to you and anyone else for any thing that was construed as a slight towards GM Ernesto or his system.

Rich

1) I totally agree here and I wasn't trying to bring anything up either.

I didn't think you or anyone else here were trying to disrespect GM Ernesto, and you haven't offened me at all. Every thing is cool on my end.

Not knowing Monkey (Tom) when I ran across that article, I was surprised and a bit confused so I thought I would share it. Seibukan's post kinda of fleshed out what I was trying to get at but didn't have the information.

No Problem here
Mark

 

[seibukan]

Considering his contribution to the founding of Modern Arnis, I hope this information may shed some light on the topic of what came from where regarding the styles that make up Modern Arnis.

GM Lazo was trained by his father Paulino Lazo, Felicisimo Dizon, Mr. Luis Cruz of the Placido Yambao group in a style called Tabak ni Bonifacio, Mateo Estilloso who was an old Arnisador that Ernesto had teaching in his training camp, and he studied for a little bit under another old arnisador named Carungay.

Although I think his biggest influence was his teacher Nicolas Ignacio from Talisay, Cebu. He was a sergeant in the army who had been assigned duty all over the Philippines. He was assigned in the Province of Pangasinan and learned their style and was well versed in the Arnis of the Northern, Central and Southern Philippines

This is where GM Lazo coined the name for his Arnis,”Luzviminda” meaning the three big islands, Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Considering his contribution to the founding of Modern Arnis, I hope this information may shed some light on the topic of what came from where regarding the styles that make up Modern Arnis.

GM Lazo was trained by his father Paulino Lazo, Felicisimo Dizon, Mr. Luis Cruz of the Placido Yambao group in a style called Tabak ni Bonifacio, Mateo Estilloso who was an old Arnisador that Ernesto had teaching in his training camp, and he studied for a little bit under another old arnisador named Carungay.

Although I think his biggest influence was his teacher Nicolas Ignacio from Talisay, Cebu. He was a sergeant in the army who had been assigned duty all over the Philippines. He was assigned in the Province of Pangasinan and learned their style and was well versed in the Arnis of the Northern, Central and Southern Philippines

This is where GM Lazo coined the name for his Arnis,”Luzviminda” meaning the three big islands, Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.

Do we know when the three of them started working together on this?

Was it before GM Remy married his wife?

When exactly was there a registration with the PI securities and what was the registration?

Thank you.

 

[seibukan]

Do we know when the three of them started working together on this?

Was it before GM Remy married his wife?

When exactly was there a registration with the PI securities and what was the registration?

Thank you.

He says he met the Presas brothers in the mid 60’s and stayed involved right up until Remy left in 72 and then he left in 75

Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story

Registered on Sept. 29, 1970: He has the original copy of the Modern Arnis Federation registration paperwork and I assume it’s what you need to do in the Philippines if you want your business/organization to be legit

 

[seibukan]

Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story

Of when the paperwork was filed

 

[Rich Parsons]

He says he met the Presas brothers in the mid 60’s and stayed involved right up until Remy left in 72 and then he left in 75

Yes, Remy was married, He mentioned his wife in the telling of the story

Registered on Sept. 29, 1970: He has the original copy of the Modern Arnis Federation registration paperwork and I assume it’s what you need to do in the Philippines if you want your business/organization to be legit

Thank you sir for filling in a little more of the time line.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Can someone place the date of GM Remy and his wife Rosemary?

 

[seibukan]

If it helps any GM Lazo says when he first met Remy he was already married and with kids.

 

[seibukan]

On another note, now that I’m knee deep into this discussion.

Have my answers to your questions past the scratch test?

I thought for sure when I began to post that I was going to have my head bit off. (Thanks for being gentle) I’m a little surprised that none of the senior MA players here have any knowledge of GM Fred Lazo and his part in the creation of Modern Arnis.

In an effort to fill any gaps in the history of MA you may have and to give the man a little of his due. I am willing to try and get answers for what ever reasonable questions you may have regarding the history of Modern Arnis.

I fully understand there is a certain level of suspicion and disbelief towards my statements, but I would like to think that as the information I provide continues to pass muster that most of you would make an effort to acknowledge GM Federico T. Lazo’s contributions to Modern Arnis and that some of you may take the step of learning from the Grandmaster.

thanks

 

[seibukan]

Have my answers to your questions past the scratch test?

passed


thanks

 

[Rich Parsons]

On another note, now that I’m knee deep into this discussion.

Have my answers to your questions past the scratch test?

I thought for sure when I began to post that I was going to have my head bit off. (Thanks for being gentle) I’m a little surprised that none of the senior MA players here have any knowledge of GM Fred Lazo and his part in the creation of Modern Arnis.

In an effort to fill any gaps in the history of MA you may have and to give the man a little of his due. I am willing to try and get answers for what ever reasonable questions you may have regarding the history of Modern Arnis.

I fully understand there is a certain level of suspicion and disbelief towards my statements, but I would like to think that as the information I provide continues to pass muster that most of you would make an effort to acknowledge GM Federico T. Lazo’s contributions to Modern Arnis and that some of you may take the step of learning from the Grandmaster.

thanks

Verbal knowledge that is small and limted. So, as to not pass on false information it is better to not say anything but to keep an open mind.

I had heard the name before. I knew he was around near the beginning.

Nothing more than that. No disrespect meant.

As to not ripping your head off, well some might do and some might not. But if you present comments that are clear and concise and understandable people can get theri hands around them and let them digest. Yet if you only make claims about GM Lazo and the others you train with then it is hard to take what you write at facevalue.

** Evil Grin **

Besides we might just need more information before we can present a good case in an argument/discussion.

Thanks

 

[seibukan]

I noted from the get go that I was a student of GM Lazo and he is my only source of information.

I’m sure whatever information I post will be bullet proof so please feel free to FIRE AT WILL

**Very Confident, Give Me What You Got Smirk**

Rich, Thank you taking part in this discussion with me, Mr. Anderson was quick to try and sideline me, but now has nothing to say.

 

[Guro Harold]

I have met GM Lazo, who is a man rich in history and humility, who also is a very knowledgeable and patient teacher (remembering a cane control move that he showed that can break both wrist).

As far as what someone fails to mention being held as a standard, I have two points to make:

I) Dan, not picking on you, but GM Presas never mentioned you personally or publically when he conducted seminars in Raleigh, NC. Does that mean that you did not exist or lighten your contributions, no.

II) Some time ago, a date of mine noticed a tatoo on my father's arm and asked what did the tatoo say, which was, "I Love Nina". Well my mother's name is not Nina and my Father never bothered to mention who Nina was. I vaguely remember when I was a child that he said that the tatoo said, "I Love Lucy".

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am sure that GM Ernesto and GM Lazo both had significant impact on the founding of Modern Arnis. However, I do not think that their is any evidence that it was not all GM Remy Presas in the end who actually is the founder. Both GM Ernesto Presas and GM Lazo both went on to found their own arts respectively. I am sure that they did this to distinguish themselves and their differances in training and teaching as compared to GM Remy Presas. Regardless, GM Ernesto Presas and GM Lazo probably have a ton to offer and I for one would like the opportunity to train with them in the near future. I have seen Ernesto move (in person) and he moves great and yet differently than his brother. Bottom line it is nice to hear about GM Lazo and his contribution to Modern Arnis. I would love to see some video clips of : Luzviminda Arnis!
:asian:


Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Dan Anderson]

Rich, Thank you taking part in this discussion with me, Mr. Anderson was quick to try and sideline me, but now has nothing to say.

Seibukan,

Howdy. I have been barely following this thread. I have gone through it over the last couple of minutes and there has been no attempt to sideline you or anybody else. Wrong interpretation of what I posted entirely. All I said what that RP never mentioned GM to me..

Palusut,
No need for RP to mention me in NC. My reputation preceeds me and therefore I need no mention. :boing2:

Very famously yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Now that the public beating up of Monkey has cooled down a bit, here is an observation based what I have read.

I don't think Monkey has been in so much of a baiting mode as he has just been out of touch with the everyday Modern Arnis world. He got this title (just like a bunch of us) and ranking but has been in California doing whatever he has been doing and has not kept up with the rest of the development of MA. Also, seeing Remy and Ernesto together once would give a totally different impression of their relationship from what Remy told and countless others how it was. His typing/grammer skills haven't helped much in terms of seeing where he is coming from either.

The key thing I see here is his needing to be brought up to speed with the rest of us. If you're out of touch, that's what is needed and wanted.

My two cents worth.

Off to the PI in two weeks for the first Remy Presas Festival. This ought to be great! I'll let you all know how it went.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

I respect your observation, Dan. I really do; you are good at being diplomatic.

Since I am terrible at being diplomatic, I have a different take.

I can respect that Mr. Carnes has been "out of the loop," however, people have to be personally responsible for their own knowledge when it is available. This isn't a year after Professors passing where there was limited information and a lot of unanswered questions. This is 2006, people have moved on, and the information is out there for all who would seek it. Doing a few Internet seaches and talking to a few people would have done the trick.

Mr. Carnes didn't come on board asking questions in the spirit of learning. People would have been happy to point him in the right direction to help bring him up to speed. No....Mr. Carnes came on board with all the answers. I mean ALL of them....regarding Modern Arnis, JKD, boxing, kenpo, and the list continues.

He came on board with a clear agenda. That agenda, at the very least anyway, was to present himself as an all knowing individual. It was through this process and presentation that he was very insulting to legitimate leaders of Modern Arnis and other communities and arts, and very annoying for most of us to put up with. As one example, he went as far as derailing a memorial thread for the passing of Mrs. Parker to be self-promoting and proclaiming; which I know was particularly offensive to more then one person.

Well, his agenda and behavior backfired, as I see he is now a banned user. I don't know the exact reason for the ban, yet sadly, it is safe to say that he won't be missed. Because he is banned, I won't be saying much more regarding him, as he is not here to defend himself.

I will say this, however. Putting myself in la-la land for a moment where titles and rank matter, and where "Guardian" is a legitimate Modern Arnis title (this is the same la la land where white boys from California are raised as Shaolin Monks, where "ninja guns" are practical, and where "forrest gumping" yourself into history would actually fool people) it would definatily be the stupidest and most pointless title we have to date.

If I were Mr. Carnes, I would seek help; as in professional help from a psychologist. Then, when I'm all better, I would piece together my training and experiences that were VALID, and I would approach things in the spirit of learning...as that path will take me a lot further then any other in this field of study.

Paul Janulis

P.S. off topic, but Dan...good luck in the PI and COME BACK SAFE! I get to call you when you return to get the 1st hand scoop on how things went (and your take on how Balute eggs taste)!

 

[kruzada]

Off to the PI in two weeks for the first Remy Presas Festival. This ought to be great! I'll let you all know how it went.

My brother Rico Acosta will be at the Memorial Camp. He is also teaching at the 3rd FMA Festival, I'm sure Master Bambit will introduce him to you.

I wish I could be there. Have a great time!

-Rich

 

[modarnis]

My brother Rico Acosta will be at the Memorial Camp. He is also teaching at the 3rd FMA Festival, I'm sure Master Bambit will introduce him to you.

I wish I could be there. Have a great time!

-Rich

Rich,

Have him look for Brian Zawilinski from CT while he is there. Brian will be travelling with Master Bambit.

 

[seibukan]

RP never mentioned GM Lazo in any conversations I had with him about the founding of MA. My understanding is GM Lazo is primarily a Kombatan man. I may be wrong.

One thing to consider is that often a founder of an art has people around him who spark him in one way or another. To think they had a hand in the actual founding of an art is wholey a different matter. An example of this is my founding American Freestyle Karate back in 1977/1978. I've had many sparring partners yet none of them helped me create the curriculum. I think the same is with Remy Presas.

Yours,

Dan Anderson
PS - Rich - I understand where you are going. Eees cool. DA
PPS - Mark - Very nicely done post.

Sorry for the thread necromancy but I figured some of you may be interested in seeing the original documents regarding the founding of Modern Arnis http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html