DISCARD Encounter With Danger et. al.

[Michael Billings]

In another thread

See here:

Many feel that AK has many "holes" or un-addressed situations within....

]http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11296&perpage=15&pagenumber=2http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11296&perpage=15&pagenumber=2[/b

there was discussion regarding the USEFULLNESS of rolling when going to the ground. I did not want to pull the discussion off track there by disagreeing or agreeing with other's posts, but it brought an interesting question up.

In part I would have agreed a few months ago that Kenpo lacked "some" ground work, based on the fact that it is not an area frequently explored in depth by most instructors. I have since changed my opinion. I disagree strongly with those who state we have no ground work, rather I would concede that they have none "in their experience." Kenpo is three dimensional and techniques can be applied from the ground as I worked in a Women's Self Defense class over the past 6 weeks.

We need something if we are tripped by a curb, or step in a hole when pushed from behind, and thus, Encounter with Danger serves us well and should not be discarded or minimized in terms of what it teaches.

Over the past few months I have been exposed to a couple more systems that use rolling as a defense and as an offense. One is Russian Systema, (ok, a bit much for me with the rolling) and the Silat sub-system Harimau (which I saw in action and it was very, very effective.) Both fall outside the range of BJJ, which I do see as a ground art, but not necessarily as a "rolling" art. But pieces of both appear in our techniques and Contact or Control Manipulations, you just have to start thinking outside the box and reinterpret what you are seeing.

I am curious as to what other Kenpoist think? Have you really played with, then worked the techniques from the ground? Can "rolling", one of our more advanced MANEUVERS be utilized in the context of developing a good ground game in American Kenpo, without deviating from the Principles, Concepts and Theories as set out for EPAK practitionaers?

Whew, long question. Both barrels were firing today.

-Michael

 

[cdhall]

Sir:

As I have posted a few times on here perhaps, I have used 2-3 Techniques such as Snapping Twig when working with Grappling and they can work quite well, especially when just pulling out Concepts from them. I mean in Snapping Twig, if you destroy one of his arms and he is using it for a base, he will fall onto your oncoming strikes.

That is about all the experience I have. Except to say that kicking someone who is coming at you is very effective whether standing up or on the ground. I like this in Encounter with Danger and I also like working Leap from Danger which I know does not go to the ground of course.

Thanks again for your website, Mr. Billings. I had to refer to it to finish this post.
:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by cdhall
Sir:

As I have posted a few times on here perhaps, I have used 2-3 Techniques such as Snapping Twig when working with Grappling and they can work quite well, especially when just pulling out Concepts from them. I mean in Snapping Twig, if you destroy one of his arms and he is using it for a base, he will fall onto your oncoming strikes.

Could you give us an example of the way you made this tech. work? What positions were you and your opp. in when you did this?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by Michael Billings
I would have agreed a few months ago that Kenpo lacked "some" ground work,

I have since changed my opinion, rather I would concede that they have none "in [THEIR] experience based on the fact that it is not an area that THEY frequently explore in depth!"

Have you really played with, then worked the techniques from the ground?

"Rolling, Falling, Vaulting, etc.", are some of our more advanced MANEUVERS utilized in the context of developing a good ground game in American Kenpo, without deviating from the Principles, Concepts and Theories.-Michael

I agree, somewhere along the line we have missed "variable expansion" to the examples within the BASE 154.

:asian:

 

[MisterMike]

I always thought that Mr. Parker did not want to go to the ground. He preferred to be standing in case there were more than one attacker.

Gracie is pretty tough on the ground in those toughman contests because he knows no-body is going to slide under the ropes and kick him in the head while he's grappling.

OK - enough of Devil's advocate...

I'd have liked to have seen more ground work in Kenpo rather than just at a seminare here and there. I think the potential is there given the extensibility of the system.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I always thought that Mr. Parker did not want to go to the ground. He preferred to be standing in case there were more than one attacker.

Exactly, he preferred Not to go to the ground, thus the attention to his priority.

Originally posted by MisterMike
I'd have liked to have seen more ground work in Kenpo rather than just at a seminare here and there. I think the potential is there given the extensibility of the system.

I think many today "are" going back and bringing out more attention and drilling on this portion of our Art.

:asian:

 

[Dominic Jones]

A few years ago, June 1999 I think. GM Larry Tatum came to Exeter, England to give a 2 day seminar.

On the second day he told us how he was getting his high grade students to apply their existing knowledge of kenpo to the ground. At first they struggled but soon saw the light.

He demonstated 2 "new" kenpo ground techniques that he had created and used me as the dummy. He told us that he was putting together an additional 24 technique syllabus on ground fighting.

I don`t know if the 24 groundwork techniques were finished or not. I guess I`ll have to email GM Tatum.

Cheers Dom
:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
A few years ago, June 1999 I think. GM Larry Tatum came to Exeter, England to give a 2 day seminar.

On the second day he told us how he was getting his high grade students to apply their existing knowledge of kenpo to the ground. At first they struggled but soon saw the light.

He demonstated 2 "new" kenpo ground techniques that he had created and used me as the dummy. He told us that he was putting together an additional 24 technique syllabus on ground fighting.

I don`t know if the 24 groundwork techniques were finished or not. I guess I`ll have to email GM Tatum.

Cheers Dom
:asian:

Maybe Robert can shed some light on this seeing that he trains with LT.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

E-mail or phone the man, would be my advice. Why settle for me?

Um...I might note, however, that I've discussed some of the techniques on this forum--and basically been told I'm an idiot to think that would work. Just go back through the discussions...back...back...a few months ago.

Funny, too, how whenever we discuss possible lacunae in kenpo--it always lapses into a discussion of grappling/gropundfighting.

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
A few years ago, June 1999 I think. GM Larry Tatum came to Exeter, England to give a 2 day seminar.

On the second day he told us how he was getting his high grade students to apply their existing knowledge of kenpo to the ground. At first they struggled but soon saw the light.

He demonstated 2 "new" kenpo ground techniques that he had created and used me as the dummy. He told us that he was putting together an additional 24 technique syllabus on ground fighting.

I don`t know if the 24 groundwork techniques were finished or not. I guess I`ll have to email GM Tatum.

Cheers Dom
:asian:

Let us know when and/or if they are ready... I'd be very curious to what these new techniques would be...

I always loved the names that give insight to what the technique does.

The additional ones my instructor has (on top of the core techniques) have the word "badger" as part of the technique name to represent being on our backs on the ground. Not sure if he made them or if our local 3rd dan instructor passed these to us.

- Ceicei

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Funny, too, how whenever we discuss possible lacunae in kenpo--it always lapses into a discussion of grappling/gropundfighting.

Thanks to Dictionary.com for cluing me in.

Without going into the "forbidden topic" I think the general reason people find things lacking in Kenpo is that according to Infinite Insights Book 5, the way the system is presented, and presumably in the manuals that I have never seen, there are several lacunae.

On the other hand that very same system is designed to teach you to spontaneously "adapt and overcome" so it is also likely that what is on the page is only the beginning. As Doc has said several times, Everything is not in Infinite Insights. And as I pointed out regarding Mr. Tatum's Tip of the Week#9, that armlock/takedown is not in Attacking Mace either, but he put it in and he used Kenpo Principles and Concepts to do it very fluidly so I have to confess "it's in there" just liked in the old Ragu commercials.

I think the general argument regarding lacunae is that if you go by what is written down, there are lots of them. But as Clyde and probably you rmcrobertson have both said repeatedly, this is why you need an instructor...

OK, that was my 2 cents. I think I'm about 4 posts away from being a Martial Talk Master Black Belt now. Woo Hoo!
:boing1:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Um...I might note, however, that I've discussed some of the techniques on this forum--and basically been told I'm an idiot to think that would work. Just go back through the discussions...back...back...a few months ago.

Just for S&G's why don't you list them again

Funny, too, how whenever we discuss possible lacunae in kenpo--it always lapses into a discussion of grappling/gropundfighting.

I'd be happy to talk to you about the unrealistic and mostly ineffective weapons techniques. How about the ridiculousness of the 2-man techniques? How about the problems with some of the combination attacks? Or the "hug" attacks?

Groundfighting seems to be the focus because everyday keeps screaming that it's there, but no one is really explaining where it is or how it is used. Mr. Billings is the only person I can think of on your side of the argument that has offered up any semblance of a correlation between EPAK and groundfighting. If you want to get all haughty about it why don't you just list the techniques that can directly translate to the ground? I'm up for conversing much like I did with Mr. Billings in the other thread, but you seem to resort to intellectual cheap-shots when you see things aren't going your way.

I'm willing to discuss if you are, but I still think that someone should list the EPAK techniques that translate to ground defenses. It wouldn't require indepth explanation, if the correlation is that visible then we would all see it right away. Something like this may also end this particular line of posting.

just a thought

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

Just for S&G's why don't you list them again

Yes, I have also made this request and am still waiting.

I'd be happy to talk to you about the unrealistic and mostly ineffective weapons techniques. How about the ridiculousness of the 2-man techniques? How about the problems with some of the combination attacks? Or the "hug" attacks?

Again, very familiar. I believe that I have also touched on your same request Kenpo Yahoo.

Groundfighting seems to be the focus because everyday keeps screaming that it's there, but no one is really explaining where it is or how it is used. Mr. Billings is the only person I can think of on your side of the argument that has offered up any semblance of a correlation between EPAK and groundfighting. If you want to get all haughty about it why don't you just list the techniques that can directly translate to the ground? I'm up for conversing much like I did with Mr. Billings in the other thread, but you seem to resort to intellectual cheap-shots when you see things aren't going your way.

I agree!

I'm willing to discuss if you are, but I still think that someone should list the EPAK techniques that translate to ground defenses. It wouldn't require indepth explanation, if the correlation is that visible then we would all see it right away. Something like this may also end this particular line of posting.

Again, another request that I have also had, and am still waiting for.

[quotejust a thought [/B]

And a very good one at that!

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Guys:

Been there, tried that.

I am sorry, but I don't see the point of trying to explain to folks who seem to need to get personal. I don't claim--how many times have I posted this?--to be Ahura-Mazda's gift to kenpo, I don't claim to be able to lick everybody in the world. (And a good thing too, all things considered.) I simply think I've been taught well, and I have a few intelligent things to say about some things in kenpo.

Or to flip it around--can you honestly say that you've been as forthcoming, or as specific, as you want me to be?

Or there's the uselessness of the bearhug and the two-man attacks--uh, nope. I've TRIED grabbing the likes of Clyde...

As for my name, it's, "Robert," or "Doctor Robertson," as I tell my students. I prefer Robert, but if you'd like something more formal...

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Dear Guys:

Or to flip it around--can you honestly say that you've been as forthcoming, or as specific, as you want me to be?

I have been. I was asking for an example of techs. For example, parting wings- 2 hand push. How is this used on the ground? I have a few ideas that come to mind and well as some counters. Thats all we're asking here.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, if you have, "some ideas," why not simply state them? I mean, if you want to teach, you need to show as well as to rip at...and if you'll just explaain what you mean, we can all learn something. It's so simple.

And why not explore--and discuss--the holes, the uselessnesses, the lacks, in YOUR home arts? In your own practice? I mean, I try to maintain--and be honest about--a lively sense of my own limitations...

I don't see why I should continue to serve as your clay pigeon. I've tried several times to explain, only to have the Holy Authority of the Street invoked again and again. The issue of grappling/groundfighting has done been whupped. Enough.

So Shawn--exactly what's the difficulty you have with executing the bear hug/the two-man techniques?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

And why not explore--and discuss--the holes, the uselessnesses, the lacks, in YOUR home arts? In your own practice? I mean, I try to maintain--and be honest about--a lively sense of my own limitations...

Was it not this discussion of holes, or more correctly stated the lack of emphasis, in kenpo that created this thread and several of its predecessors? I'm an AKKI'er who is glad that his association is looking more into the groundfighting. Unfortunately everyone sees this issue as black and white, instead of taking a middle of the road stance and trying to explain what can be done to either bring this subject to light or develop it more extensively.

You continue to say that you have listed these techniques or ideas in the past, but I've yet to see where you have addressed this subject. Do we not perform takedowns ourselves? Look at Dance of Death.

Just this week we worked Dance of Death from the offensive and defensive positions. Offensively, we worked the entry into the takedown (which looks oddly similiar to a single leg just with an elbow assisted strikedown. Then defensively we worked our response to the takedown which resulted in the offensive guy ending up on his butt or on his back. This then allowed us to stand-up (a crucial skill) circle "toriador- style" enter with strikes and set the mount, which allowed the guy on bottom to work one of several mount escapes one of which is the basic bridge. He would then break the guard, if necessary, and get back to his feet.

After working our kenpo for a while, then working this positioning drill for a while, we went to pure grappling for an hour or so. This is what we're doing at the school where I train.

I don't see why I should continue to serve as your clay pigeon. I've tried several times to explain, only to have the Holy Authority of the Street invoked again and again. The issue of grappling/groundfighting has done been whupped. Enough.

No one is asking you to be a clay pigeon, but I am getting aweful sick and tired of all the EPAK'ers telling us that groundfighting is built into the system, but not providing any further details. So far, at least from the ground perspective, we have talked about bridgeing, the scissor sweep, and an ankle pick that work from the mount, the open guard, and you on your back v.s. a standing attacker, respectively. Yet the only material you offer up are shoulder rolls and back kicks. Where are the sweeps, reversals, etc.? Everyone's argument is that I'll poke your eye out :shrug:, well before you can get to that all-damaging eye poking position you may have to change positions or avoid some strikes. So where does EPAK address this in regards to ground work?

I apologize for using this thread to continue this particular argument but everyone seems to be yelling, but no one is really saying anything.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Well, if you have, "some ideas," why not simply state them? I mean, if you want to teach, you need to show as well as to rip at...and if you'll just explaain what you mean, we can all learn something. It's so simple.

Explain what I mean?? And you should talk Rob? Why dont you give some explaination? Instead you choose to just say over and over and over and over "Its in there!!" Ok, here's my example of a tech. and a possible counter. Parting wings. If the mounted person is attempting a choke or a punch, you can use your hands to block his strike and then proceed to do a swordhand to his throat. The possible counter-- a head butt or he could use his chest and slam down onto your face.

And why not explore--and discuss--the holes, the uselessnesses, the lacks, in YOUR home arts? In your own practice? I mean, I try to maintain--and be honest about--a lively sense of my own limitations...

The holes in my home arts. OK. Well, as you know, I"m doing BJJ to address the ground issue. I work different drills from the clinch position, so I can get work from that next range of combat. As for the techs. in Kenpo. I'll take some of them, and try to make some mods. to them. Jus trying to look at the "What Ifs" As for my punching skills. Well, I have said before that I'm not the worlds best puncher, so I work with people who are good at punching, as well as sparring and bag drills.

I don't see why I should continue to serve as your clay pigeon. I've tried several times to explain, only to have the Holy Authority of the Street invoked again and again. The issue of grappling/groundfighting has done been whupped. Enough.

Your clay pigeon! LOL! Again Rob, all we're doing here is just trying to keep the discussion rolling. Myself as well as others have offered suggestions, and all you say is, "Why? Its already there?" You talk about this "fantasy" that we all seem to have. Well, IMO, its you that has the fantasy.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, that's certainly more specific than you've been in the past.

Thank you; please continue. I believe it will always be more authoritative--and easier--to discuss what YOU do, rather than to keep worrying about what you think others do.

I think it's great you do what you do. Nifty. So why bother to keep telling me--and others in "EPAK," (the second most unpleasant acronym--right next to, "BJJ") what they don't do? I learn from your explanations, not from attacks in which--sorry--there seems to be a lot of fundamental misunderstanding.

Where are, "the sweeps and reversals?" No sweeps? Do you know the brown techniques? the extensions on the techniques? You might want to get ahold of Mr. Tatum's tapes, especially the Blue Belt endings...and as for the reversals, well, hang out with Clyde. Or look at the "what-ifs," in techniques such as, say, Crossing Talon and Darting Mace and Entangled Wing. Look at, say, the last chunk of Long Form 2--what are those pivots into forward bows and twist stances with downward heel-palms for?

By the way, please re-read my posts. I haven't mentioned, "shoulder rolls and back kicks," to my knowledge. Could you point out where I did?

Just explain. It's all that's necessary. Or, to get gnomic, lengthen your own line, and let me worry about mine.

 

[MJS]

Rob- Thank you for the reply. It has been well taken! Just one thing that I'd like to add. In reference to your statement, "Its always easier to discuss what YOU do" and "I learn from your explainations" Ok, if thats true, then let me ask this question. Why, way back, when all of this ground debating started, and I mention that I do it to suplement the 'lack' of it in Kenpo, did I get attacked? I was stating what I DO, and yet I still had replies that looked so down on it?

Mike