disadvantages of MT(for self defense)

[Littledragon]

Same disclaimer as last time. Let me first start off with the disclaimer that I dont train at a full blown MT gym. I dont want to step on any toes here. (I seem to do that often enough in the Kenpo forum.) :ultracool

I watched MT fights the other night for my first time. Some of the things they got me wondering about how good it would be for self defense. Two thing in particular:

1; They stand almost straight up. Looks easy to be taken down.
2; They stand almost squared off. With the back foot not all that much further back than the front foot. Meaning that they're groins seemed exposed. I think the logic is because that way the back round kick would hit its target faster but thats just a guess.

Again, Im no expert on the subject. My school is a mix of MT with some other stuff and I was just observing something interesting. Am I correct on these thoughts???

Every martial art has its disadvantages and cons. Muay Thai lacks the ground fighting and grappling techniques, you are right they fight squared leaving their body vulnerable for open attack, and yes the raise their front foot making it clear which foot they will kick with but also Muay Thai in the ring and in the street used for self defense is different. The Muay Thai fighter in the ring is thinking about winning and knocking his opponent out, the Muay Thai fighter in the street is thinking about how his life is on the line. Muay Thai is very effective for self defense because just imagine one Muay Thai kick to the leg hitting the nerve will end the fight just there. Every style has its disadvantages, its the advatanges you want to focus on.

Tarek Hussein (16)

 

[muaythaifreak]

It's anything but "easy" to take a Muay Thai fighter to the ground. Most take downs require that you get your center of gravity lower than your opponents, with MT fighters, the low game is usually quite strong. Not to mention the lower your center of gravity is, the closer your head is to my knees which is a bad place for your head if your up against a thai fighter that knows his business. I'm not saying a thai fighter cannot be taken down, I've been taken down a number of times, but I don't think the people who have taken me down would say it has been an easy task.

That foot thing you mention... raising the lead leg and "bouncing" it so to speak. That does not automatically tell you which foot is going to kick. MT uses what's known as the "switch kick" and done correctly, it's very effective. However, the rear leg is normally the more powerful of the two and can be employed with almost equal quickness by a good fighter. Don't let the stance fool you. It may look awkward, but it facilitates very quick use of either leg as well as making inexperienced opponents make the same assumption you do. (that the lead leg is the one that's going to be coming.)
Spar with some of the better MT guys in your school. You'll see what I mean.

 

[Littledragon]

It's anything but "easy" to take a Muay Thai fighter to the ground. Most take downs require that you get your center of gravity lower than your opponents, with MT fighters, the low game is usually quite strong. Not to mention the lower your center of gravity is, the closer your head is to my knees which is a bad place for your head if your up against a thai fighter that knows his business. I'm not saying a thai fighter cannot be taken down, I've been taken down a number of times, but I don't think the people who have taken me down would say it has been an easy task.

That foot thing you mention... raising the lead leg and "bouncing" it so to speak. That does not automatically tell you which foot is going to kick. MT uses what's known as the "switch kick" and done correctly, it's very effective. However, the rear leg is normally the more powerful of the two and can be employed with almost equal quickness by a good fighter. Don't let the stance fool you. It may look awkward, but it facilitates very quick use of either leg as well as making inexperienced opponents make the same assumption you do. (that the lead leg is the one that's going to be coming.)
Spar with some of the better MT guys in your school. You'll see what I mean.

A good example is striking to clinch in and lean your head agasint the shoulder or side of the body in order not to get hit with any strike than take the person to the ground. No art is the best or superior so in order to be a good martial artist you have to be an overall well rounded fighter so if the Muay Thai fighter gets on the ground he better know some grappling, same with the grappler and any other martial artist.

Tarek

 

[muaythaifreak]

Don't forget that the standing clinch is a Muay Thai speciality. We do it all the time. So you better be able to play the stand up game pretty well if your going to do that. But you're absolutely right about if a MT fighter goes to the ground. Which is why I also study BJJ.

 

[Littledragon]

Don't forget that the standing clinch is a Muay Thai speciality. We do it all the time. So you better be able to play the stand up game pretty well if your going to do that. But you're absolutely right about if a MT fighter goes to the ground. Which is why I also study BJJ.

Cool thats great. Great fighters must be well rounded, they must be able to strike and grapple like you do.



Tarek

 

[Troy Ostapiw/Canada]

Interseting observations.......I find that the conditioning methods, and ability to generate power from training in MT, is very benificial, but as all arts it has its limitations. If u can take the training methods of MT, and apply them to your style, it can be a great benifit, and complement your training. Not to mention getting in the ring a few times for fun, for the experience.
Stay open, do what your gut tells you..........

just one man's opinion

 

[OC Kid]

I find that MT is a simple art, few techniques no or very little open hand techniques and very few take downs, joint locks, throws ect.

Now with that being said, the strength of MT is in the simplicity of the art. Their punches and kicks are extremely powerful as well as the elbow strikes and knees. It is my experiance a trained MT fighter is a very dangerous person on the street. As a karate teacher who also trained MT I warn my students if they ever see a guy stand this way or hold their hands up this way be careful and do not fool with them.

On the other hand when I learned it was about 14 years ago from a little Japanese guy who could barely speak english, he was undefeated in Japan with over 300 fights. Now MT gyms instructors are everywhere. Much like karate there are a lot of Mc Thai schools so for present or future students like all MA students anymore becareful which school and where you train.

 

[bignick]

if a muay thai fighter knows how to tranistion from the ring to the street...they shouldn't have much of a problem defending themselves in an unarmed situation....the problem that you see all the time is people that train in sport styles like muay thai, tkd, judo and sport karate that don't realize that techniques have different applications outside the ring...we tkd people love our high kicks...watch the olympics...just blindingly fast...if they realize on the street to keep those kicks low...they'll do alright...it's when somebody thinks that the other person is going to fight them in the exact same style that they fight...especially against someone completely untrained...they can do anything...and they'll suprise you...cause they didn't know they're not "supposed" to do that...

 

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here who is a Tae Kwon Do black belt but now is doing Muay Thai and as Jiujitsu. I think that one of Muay Thai's weaknesses in a street fight is that if the fight ever does go to the ground, the trained fighter would lose his advantage if he was not trained to fight in the ground. I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.

 

[OULobo]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here who is a Tae Kwon Do black belt but now is doing Muay Thai and as Jiujitsu. I think that one of Muay Thai's weaknesses in a street fight is that if the fight ever does go to the ground, the trained fighter would lose his advantage if he was not trained to fight in the ground. I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.

That may be from the old military principle. The idea was that if you fell in combat and began wrasslin', you would either be trampled or the at the mercy of the spears/bayonets of those around you. If you were lucky the surrounding soldiers were yours and they would kill your attacker, if not then the enemy soldiers would kill you. Either way your abilities on the ground were essentially stall tactics for the ultimate outcome of what was going on up above.

 

[OC Kid]

I agree. Most of the Thai fighters I trained with/fought ect could hit so hard if they connected first there wouldnt be much left in their enemy. I used to fight a lot as a kid. Kid = 13-29 years old. I never went to the ground either in the ring or behind the bar (tav). If a fight ever went to the ground it was because I didnt do what I was supposed to do.

But FWIW it is wise to learn some ground work not as a all and all end but in case you do go down you can get back up.

Like I said in a previous post, if you go down in the street someone is going to be stomping a mud hole in you.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I have heard that Muay Thai doesn't teach ground fighting because the Thais used to think that if you are ever in the ground in a fight, you have already lost.

Let's keep in mind, as well, that Muay Thai is a *ring art*, which doesn't incorporate ground-fighting... must like Western boxing in that respect.

Some of the more comprehensive Thai martial arts on this it's based, such as Krabi-Krabong, may have more about fighting on the ground.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Whenever a style is competing, the way they fight is going to be alot different than the way they street fight because of rules. Certain stances give you advantages in the ring vs in a street fight they wont. For example, BJJ. In the cage its almost unstoppable, on the street, they are open for a nice chomping attack with most of there good holds and setups. Biting is not anything to worry about in the cage, but on the street it is. People tend to forget that. Thats why I feel standup fighting is best in the street along with many other reasons. If someone trys to grapple me in the street, they are getting bit plain and simple!

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Let's keep in mind, as well, that Muay Thai is a *ring art*, which doesn't incorporate ground-fighting... must like Western boxing in that respect.

Some of the more comprehensive Thai martial arts on this it's based, such as Krabi-Krabong, may have more about fighting on the ground.

On that same token, most Thai fighters have basic knowledge of groundfighting, such as spawling, mounting, etc... due to the realization of one of muay Thai's weaknesses.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Having trained in Muay Thai and JKD, I like the hard core training aspects and a bit of the foot work and defensive handwork, but I think little of Muay Thai as self defense. It's a hard core sport. Interception and destruction of a Muay Thai thigh kick is too easy, using reactive-muscle-kicks and the MT footwork does not blend into 95% of JKD theory. The only place I would use a Muay Thai kick would be (maybe) if a person was down at the right angle and I did not want them getting up again. Many other kicks would probably work there as well. Weng Chun low line kicks (Oblique as an example) Pananjakman and Savate and other kicks are far more effective in a street fight. But then that's JKD.. we take what works and cast out what does not. I studied Muay Thai mostly to learn how to intercept and destroy it, this is basic JKD theory.

Chino Muay Thai (Biting, pinching, eye gouging) is a great way to equalize against those groundfighters on the street. That way we can get back up on our feet where we can be way more effective, especially against multiple attackers.

Oh, and I just went back and read a few of the posts on this thread. I won't be intercepting the MT kicker's shin, I'll put my elbow/knee/foot/toe strike into a target like that nice soft vulnerable thigh, maybe at the sciatic nerve. When that foot comes down the kicker will be disabled or in great pain. I won't try to evade, I'll simultaneously counter-attack.

 

[Toasty]

First of all its called Kino Mutai & has nothing to do with Muay Thai at all dude... its Filipino (and its not even agreed upon that it actually exists...)

Also, do think that BJJ and other grapplers are unfamiliar with biting & such? And that for some reason they can't bite you back?

Also, have you ever tried to actually "intercept" a real Muay Thai round kick outside of a training scenario? Cause they seem completely unable to do in either pure Muay Thai competition or in MMA bouts either (as well a myself having used this on more than one occasion in real life).

jeez...

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

Basic fact, Muay Thai is not self defense, self defense is self defense. but if you think that an advanced mt fighter could not defend themselves, its been nice knowing you. MT does not teach how to stop a take down, how to defend against a choke, or weapons attacks. But if you check with some of the top teachers you'll find out that these things are covered in MT self defense training. If you really look with an open mind, you'll see that no martial art has all the answers in self defense, but the more of them you study, the more you can learn.

I not an expert in Muay Thai but doesnt muay thai have any locks? I saw in a book that in muay thai you can "lock" your enemy and you can knee him. But then again maybe I read wrong.

 

[cfr]

I not an expert in Muay Thai but doesnt muay thai have any locks? I saw in a book that in muay thai you can "lock" your enemy and you can knee him. But then again maybe I read wrong.

Do you mean the clinch? If so, yes, MT teaches it.

 

[automaton]

This thread title is on alot of different sites, Use the appropriate system. Sport is sport as in ring muay thai. In old style muay thai, you ahve a marital arts like mix: self defense, combative sport fighting, etc or you go military muay thai for self defense, krabi krabong in which certain systems are completely combative without dancing the weapons etc--all contain the headbutts, eye shots, throws, stomps, and shorter weapons like vertical fist short shots to use in a street fight or empty hand altercation. krabikrabong deasl with multiman and weapons attacks to complete the circle. All the tools of ring muay thai came from theolder arts adn they are all there in variation. Ring muay thai in thailand strictly deals with the business of getting a man ready for the ring. Of course the training produces an excellent fighter but as we know in a real life altercation theres alot more components to be dealt with

 

[Jagermeister]

As many of you have discussed, it's been debated whether or not the technique of MT may give an edge in a street situation. But what does give an advantage is the sheer toughness that comes from the intensity of MT training. I'm not saying technique isn't important - it's the most important thing - but I think that we can all agree, that when it comes down to it, toughness counts - a lot, especially when considering that there's no perfect style, each having its pros and cons.

Edit: Having said that, I'd like to add that I believe the technique of MT does give an edge, as well as the toughness. The power is devastating. In the dictionary, next to the word "power" should be a picture of a MT round kick being executed.