Diffrent punches

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Rat, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    @Rat

    There's another aspect to the "black belt is when you really learn to fight" that wasn't really covered earlier in the thread, although a lot of that is probably due to your focus on striking. In my Hapkido class yesterday, the Master explained that we're learning all of the techniques right now, and after black belt we'll learn the counters to those techniques.

    In this class, I'm about half-way to black belt, and I've noticed a distinct difference in how people at each level fight when we do sparring (both in my own growth and in watching or sparring with others).

    • Beginners (white and yellow belts) tend to revert to specific techniques. So if you grab them on the shoulder, they will do Technique #4 or Technique #27, which both deal with shoulder grabs. If you grab them in a straight arm grab, they will pick between techniques #9, 13, 17, 22, or 23. Because those techniques deal with a straight arm. If anything goes different than the way it was drilled, they get thoroughly confused and don't know what to do. For example, if they expect the person to land on their back, and the person lands on their stomach, they freeze. Or, if you grab them in a way they haven't practiced (i.e. a choke, which we don't have a scenario for in the white belt), then they don't know what to do.

      Beginners also don't really deal well with failure. If a technique isn't working, they either put more muscle into it (which doesn't work, or even if it does work they get yelled at for doing the technique wrong), or they revert to Taekwondo and just punch or kick.

      Also, beginners tend not to fight back in sparring. They tend to treat it as a random situation drill.

    • Intermediates (purple, orange, green) tend to try to apply the technique based on principle. For example, if someone grabs my left wrist with their right hand, I'll grab their hand with my left, and circle my left hand to grab their wrist and push down to shear the joint. If they grab my sleeve up by my arm, same thing - grab the hand, and apply pressure. Neck? Same idea. I've also got a better idea of what to do should the technique succeed, but the result be different than I expect (person falls the wrong way), because I've seen that fall enough times to know how to react to it.

      When dealing with failure, I also have more tools to respond to what's going on, and I can at least try something else. For example, if I can't bend the arm and make a gooseneck, I will straighten the arm and make an armbar. Or at least try to. I usually see how it SHOULD work, but I have trouble making it actually work.

      In sparring, if someone leaves a glaring opening I will take advantage of it, but I don't have all the tools yet to be able to realistically counter what they're trying to do.

    • Advanced (blue, red) continue to apply techniques based on principle, and have a lot better idea of what to do when modifications are necessary. As to failure - they fail less often in the first place because they've learned how to apply the principles much better, and they are much quicker to adapt to the failure of one technique and smoothly transition into another. In sparring, if you do not apply the technique correctly, they are very quick to react to the failure and make you suffer for it.

    • Black belts...well, we have one black belt, and he's been a black belt for about 3 classes. So we haven't seen much of that yet. But from a small demonstration my Master gave yesterday, it seems like the black belt is a bit more proactive in countering techniques. Where against a blue belt, if you have proper technique they shouldn't be able to offer much resistance, a black belt will actively counter your techniques.
    I realize this is Hapkido, which is definitely NOT what I recommend for you (it is NOT a way to get fast results and you seem more interested in striking anyway). But I hope it does help you to see how training progresses in martial arts, where you evolve from the basic building blocks to putting it all together.
     
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  2. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

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    Interesting and i do get it. I think i just disagree with how most places teach it and thats just my viewpoint on the matter. Not that it doesnt work, it might just not be for me.

    I know its unrelated but i did look for Hapkido but i only found some weird prefix Hapkido which does five animal style kung fu forms. Also i don't mind grappling, but im more of a stand up person, given my weight i think a balance between learning to grapple and strike would be great for me. I haven't really given grappling a go, i dislike being man handled so i would have to be weened into it from the stand up throws and joint locks anyway. :p (i understand its place and the need to learn it to be a complete fighter at least also the fact i dislike being man handled would probably boost confidence if i started doing Judo or something and getting used to be thrown around)


    And totally unrelated, do you think looking at Karate would help someone s Taekwondo? Or what ever their main predecessor style is. I have asked this on another thread but figured why not here as well to get some clarification.


    Some people here might be pleased to know i ordered "a killing art" as well.
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    Hapkido is standup. It's standup grappling. The goal is to take the other person down while you're still standing and then break their wrist or elbow against your knee.

    The more you learn, the better you are as a martial artist. It could be taking something similar like Taekwondo and Karate. It could be branching out to something completely different like Taekwondo and Jiu-Jitsu. It could be just continuing to train Taekwondo and hone your craft.

    But you have to train.
     
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  4. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

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    You have ordered what?
     
  5. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

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    Rat

    you want fast fast progress and that isn't gonna happen like you want it to.

    Where I see you have issues is the grading systems and my friend that is a fact of life any of the arts you mention have that and if you get into the grappling arts then your rise up the grades is going to be slower.

    I would stick with a striking art and cross train to fill any flaws you think are there. You have to train for a while before you do that.

    It great that you are so keen etc and that you are obviously reading of here but do bear in mind that when guys on here are saying things are missing or flawed or whatever the term, they are coming at it from the viewpoint of years of training and time spent studying etc.

    Young man you are jumping around so much that in effect you are skimming and trying to pick and choose, that is fine it is really , after you get time in and a skill set to work from
     
  6. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

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    That TKD book.
     
  7. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

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    Oh ok
     
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Black Belt

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    I have been involved in WTF TKD for some time and will be the first to admit that it has skewed the perception of TKD. However, I cannot stress enough how much it has to do with the instructor(s) or organization. Most TKD is not just kicking. I would say any school worth it's salt is not just kicking.
     
  9. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

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    Time to dust off this thread again:

    I have a question regarding vertical punching. What do you aim with? I want to make contact with my entire fist when i punch and i cant figure out to aim with the top knuckles or the second knuckle or the bottom three?

    Im trying to refine my technique. (dont get started in the horizontal twisting one, thats been refined out of me, i never use it when i punch anymore or very rarely do)
     
  10. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

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    First and second knuckles, the ones closest the thumb.

    I broke my third (ring) metacarpal using the 'whole fist contact' idea...

    I know people say to use the middle, ring and small knuckles, but I disagree on both a physiological and personal experience basis.
     
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  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I’ve said it a few times in the past, but now’s a great time to say it again...

    My father and both of his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon back in the 60s and 70s. They practiced the flashy jumping and spinning kicks in class, but those were always taught and emphasized as training agility and coordination, not self defense. They sparred with minimal gear on, did continuous sparring, and did medium to heavy contact. Hands and feet were treated as equally important. Working out with my uncle back when I was a Kyokushin student here in the States, they seemed not that far apart at its core.

    About 15 years or so ago, my uncle got the urge to start training again. He went to a local TKD school against my advice (I wasn’t anti-TKD, I was anti that school). After a few months and when he got comfortable with being back, he was sparring and the teachers weren’t happy with his style of sparring. They repeatedly said “why are you throwing punches? Punches don’t score points!” His reply - “I’m not here to score points.” It wasn’t competition classes this was being said in, it was every class. He left a few months later when his contract was up.
     
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  12. dvcochran

    dvcochran Black Belt

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    Been there, done that.
     
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  13. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

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    I can get behind using the middle finger, but lower seems like the bottom two knuckles will take all the impact.

    I will give it a shot when i get a bag. (top knuckles) I will post results as i find them.
     
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  14. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    But at the same time (at least the BJJ I have experience with), they have like 5 stripes at each belt. Same idea/separation, just less 'belts'
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    Yeah, and our green has 1 stripe, our blue and red have 2 stripes.

    We also have intermediate ranks between degrees at my school.
     
  16. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    So assuming you have 10 kyus, plus 5 stripes (1 green, 2 blue, 2 red), that's 15 'ranks'. If a school has white, blue, purple, brown, with 5 stripes each, that's 20 'ranks'. Each stripe in BJJ would be the equivalent of a kyu in some other systems.

    In my first style, we had your standard set of belts (I think 9 colors), and each one had no stripe->1 stripe->2 stripe->next belt. I would consider a white belt with no stripes to be pretty close to a white belt with 2 stripes. In BJJ, if I saw a white belt with no stripes next to a white belt with 4/5 stripes (in each case right before next belt), I would assume a pretty big skill difference.
     
  17. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    School I'm at now has 12 keub ranks: White, Yellow, Purple, Orange, Green, Green I, Blue, Blue II, Blue II, Red, Red I, Red II. After black belt you get gup ranks between the degrees. Or as I call it, Black Belt 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, then 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and 3.0. I just got my 3rd Dan (as in, yesterday) and I have 4 gups to 4th dan.

    School I was at as a kid had 28 keub ranks. White, 3 stripes before yellow, 3 stripes before orange, and again 3 stripes each for purple, green, blue, red, and brown.
     
  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    That second one fits with my first school, which had i think 27 'keub' (we didnt call it that, not TKD), ranks. Those stripes meant very little in terms of differentiating skill level.
     
  19. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

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    How are you at the moment training?

    Have you found a dojo that you like yet?
     
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  20. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

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    waiting to go look at that Arnis place i posted in the arnis thread.
     

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