Diffrent punches

[pdg]

Plus in the TKD system, they even confess your actual teaching starts at black belt, so you arent technically climbing the tree until you are at the top of the tree and that stands contradictory to them putting a self defence marker on it. Useless for self defence if it takes you 20 years to learn it

If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...

Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...

Black belt is not top of the tree.

Your proper training starts when you start, but until you get to first Dan you're a beginner - first Dan is 'novice'. That's the point where you (should) have a good understanding of the fundamentals and are in a position to build upon those.

If you can't apply what you get taught at your first few white belt lessons then that's on you I'm afraid.

 

[skribs]

The belt system to me can be exploited and is arbitary in my eyes, the over arching organization has decided what belt needs to know to pass onto the next. in systems which arent good you can be stuck to your belt too long to keep you coming back to progress to the next level of knowledge or you can be fast tracked and it made meaningless. Its just convenient it exists since it helps them in a capitalist system, could have gutted what a white belt used to be taught to make it easier to get the next belt etc. How ever i understand the need for a system of marking progression, the one i thought up for was just some marker to say they learnt basics, one for intermediate and one for advanced. (same issue if you disagree with whats the foundation or maybe i am fast tracking or slowing down to get more money)

Plus in the TKD system, they even confess your actual teaching starts at black belt, so you arent technically climbing the tree until you are at the top of the tree and that stands contradictory to them putting a self defence marker on it. Useless for self defence if it takes you 20 years to learn it. (after those 20 years of learning it fair game, but you cant guarantee you don't need your training until your a black belt, i have this issue with most traditional styles)[/quote]

Curriculum built around a belt system follow this philosophy: give you bites of information and let you digest it. Once you've digested it, you get put into the next part of the curriculum so you can learn the next piece of it. There's a lot to learn in martial arts. If we taught our white belts the stuff we teach in our black belt classes, it would be so far over their heads and they wouldn't be able to do any of it, would be frustrated, and would quit.

It's not about hiding the curriculum in secrecy. It's about teaching you what you're ready to learn.

And your idea for having a marker to say you've learned basics, intermediate, and advanced is nothing new. In fact...it's what belt systems do. What you're saying is "I don't like cake, but I have an idea for a desert which is a fluffy, sweet bread-like baked good covered in frosting."

The comment about "not really learning until you're a black belt" is a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's mainly pointed at people who want to get their black belt and then quit training. It is expected that someone who is a black belt in Taekwondo has a firm understanding of Taekwondo, but it is at black belt where you learn to apply the techniques. But without the training up to that point, you wouldn't have the techniques to apply.

I think im just bias against TKD. I haven't had positive feed back to balance out the negatives i have been told/see about it. Most of my issues apply to most traditional styles like the time it takes to be proficient, kata etc. Some videos i watched on some of the elements of TKD have given me faith enough to try it again for a little bit. (Plus i think i may be at fault a little for the dislike i find in TKD, all i have to say about that) Same with what some of you have said about some of the moves being used for various things, i can tell you this right now im glad i have a ITF off shoot and not a WTF one.

If you don't want to take time to be proficient, you're not going to find any art that works for you. Krav Maga will be the most efficient at teaching you the basics of fighting, but guess what! It has a belt system! It also takes quite a long time and rigorous training to progress to higher levels. If you want to know more than "palm strike repeatedly to the face" you're going to need to take a lot of time to train.

And if you're not training at all - who cares if the art you're avoiding is fast or slow. If it takes you 5 years to become proficient in Taekwondo, or you spend 5 years waiting to find an art that you can be proficient in within a few months...Taekwondo is going to be faster.

 

[skribs]

How ever i understand the need for a system of marking progression, the one i thought up for was just some marker to say they learnt basics, one for intermediate and one for advanced. (same issue if you disagree with whats the foundation or maybe i am fast tracking or slowing down to get more money)

I said this in my previous post but I want to highlight it...

THIS IS WHAT A BELT SYSTEM DOES.

 

[skribs]

If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...

Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...

Black belt is not top of the tree.

Your proper training starts when you start, but until you get to first Dan you're a beginner - first Dan is 'novice'. That's the point where you (should) have a good understanding of the fundamentals and are in a position to build upon those.

If you can't apply what you get taught at your first few white belt lessons then that's on you I'm afraid.

I think the "black belt is when your training begins" is more aimed at people who get their black belt and quit. But at our school, black belts don't really learn much new stuff (as far as Taekwondo anyway). It's mostly just different ways of combining or stringing together stuff we knew already. Whereas for our purple belts they're learning back kicks and flying side kicks, our green belts are learning tornado kicks and hook kicks, and our red belts are learning how to do them 100% proper. Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.

 

[pdg]

I said this in my previous post but I want to highlight it...

THIS IS WHAT A BELT SYSTEM DOES.

But it does it in a more precise and structured manner than "basic / intermediate / advanced".

Maybe instead of colours we could have basic 1, basic 2 (up to say, 9?) then have intermediate 1-6 and advanced 1-4.

Just think how much easier that would be

 

[skribs]

I actually get the impression that you want and think that if you ask the guys on here you are going to fast track and or be able to teach ... I may be wrong but ....

Is this the next level of Ameri-Do-Te or Rex Kwon Do? Not even someone who got their blue belt and quit to make their own art, but someone who got a bunch of advice online and started their own system?

 

[skribs]

But it does it in a more precise and structured manner than "basic / intermediate / advanced".

Maybe instead of colours we could have basic 1, basic 2 (up to say, 9?) then have intermediate 1-6 and advanced 1-4.

Just think how much easier that would be

Depends on the system. BJJ has only 3 colors between white and black (blue, purple, brown).

At my school we say white/yellow is beginner, purple/orange is intermediate, and green/blue/red are advanced.

 

[pdg]

I think the "black belt is when your training begins" is more aimed at people who get their black belt and quit. But at our school, black belts don't really learn much new stuff (as far as Taekwondo anyway). It's mostly just different ways of combining or stringing together stuff we knew already. Whereas for our purple belts they're learning back kicks and flying side kicks, our green belts are learning tornado kicks and hook kicks, and our red belts are learning how to do them 100% proper. Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.

There's a couple of "new" things that Dan ranks do at ours, but mainly the same as you describe - working on better combinations and applications.

Even the "new" stuff isn't exactly reserved or restricted secret knowledge though.

 

[now disabled]

Our black belts are learning how to stream things together better and pull off more advanced combinations.

Rat that should give you a very plain idea of what a BB is and why it is where you start learning

 

[now disabled]

Is this the next level of Ameri-Do-Te or Rex Kwon Do? Not even someone who got their blue belt and quit to make their own art, but someone who got a bunch of advice online and started their own system?

It is making me start to wonder lol

 

[pdg]

Depends on the system. BJJ has only 3 colors between white and black (blue, purple, brown).

At my school we say white/yellow is beginner, purple/orange is intermediate, and green/blue/red are advanced.

Yeah, but BJJ is just getting better at sitting on people isn't it?

Going off the class structure we use, I suppose I could say that 10th-7th kup is beginner, 6th and 5th kup are intermediate and 4th-1st kup are advanced...

I'm 3rd kup, and I'm a beginner to me though...

 

[now disabled]

Rat
I can't speak on TKD at all I was just trying to give you general advice.

However

If you look at any of the vids on you tube about my art (Aikido) and you see the lowere kyu grades (some of the higher to lol) performing techniques or taking ukemi they look blocky and are not flowing when they take ukemi they are anticipating (look at the feet that gives it away) but if you then look at the yudansha either performing or taking Ukemi (and believe me in some of the demos there are some kinda high grades taking ukemi ) you will see them flow and when they take ukemi they are being made to (again look at the feet it the give away) yes they make it look good but that is why they are yudansha,

That is why I said if I watch high grades I learn and the first thing I look at is the feet as that actually gives so much away in them taking ukemi.

I am sure the TKD guys can give you similar examples in TKD

 

[skribs]

Yeah, but BJJ is just getting better at sitting on people isn't it?

Going off the class structure we use, I suppose I could say that 10th-7th kup is beginner, 6th and 5th kup are intermediate and 4th-1st kup are advanced...

I'm 3rd kup, and I'm a beginner to me though...

That is true, and is a point I was thinking.

His solution to use a marker other than a belt obfuscates the problem. His problem is that belts can be used to hold people back or to keep techniques secret. "I'm sorry, you only have an intermediate marker, I won't teach you this technique that's in the advanced class." Or "I'm not going to certify you advanced because (reasons)." That can be the same issue regardless of what system is used to mark your place in the curriculum.

 

[skribs]

Rat
I can't speak on TKD at all I was just trying to give you general advice.

However

If you look at any of the vids on you tube about my art (Aikido) and you see the lowere kyu grades (some of the higher to lol) performing techniques or taking ukemi they look blocky and are not flowing when they take ukemi they are anticipating (look at the feet that gives it away) but if you then look at the yudansha either performing or taking Ukemi (and believe me in some of the demos there are some kinda high grades taking ukemi ) you will see them flow and when they take ukemi they are being made to (again look at the feet it the give away) yes they make it look good but that is why they are yudansha,

That is why I said if I watch high grades I learn and the first thing I look at is the feet as that actually gives so much away in them taking ukemi.

I am sure the TKD guys can give you similar examples in TKD

I can speak to this in hapkido. As a white belt, everything was overwhelming and my footwork was terrible. For example, if you needed to move counter-clockwise from 9:00 to 12:00, it's supposed to be a single sweep from 9, around the center of the dial, and up to 12. I would instead do steps hitting the edge of the clock from 9 to 6, then 5, then 4, then 3, then...you get the idea. I'd end up going around the clock 2-3 times before getting a takedown or giving up.

As an orange belt, this is mostly fixed.

 

[now disabled]

That is true, and is a point I was thinking.

His solution to use a marker other than a belt obfuscates the problem. His problem is that belts can be used to hold people back or to keep techniques secret. "I'm sorry, you only have an intermediate marker, I won't teach you this technique that's in the advanced class." Or "I'm not going to certify you advanced because (reasons)." That can be the same issue regardless of what system is used to mark your place in the curriculum.

100% agree

I failed my 4th dan first time and yes I was upset but when it was pointed out to me why I just took that on board and well practiced more

 

[now disabled]

I can speak to this in hapkido. As a white belt, everything was overwhelming and my footwork was terrible. For example, if you needed to move counter-clockwise from 9:00 to 12:00, it's supposed to be a single sweep from 9, around the center of the dial, and up to 12. I would instead do steps hitting the edge of the clock from 9 to 6, then 5, then 4, then 3, then...you get the idea. I'd end up going around the clock 2-3 times before getting a takedown or giving up.

As an orange belt, this is mostly fixed.

I have even had a shihan tell me that a certain technique if you do it by the book your gonna get your head taken off lol ...I remember looking at him and he then said oh you had to learn it that way for the footwork and to get the principles down now you will learn to close it down as now you know the principles of how it works

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If that's your understanding then it's either been very badly explained or you've misinterpreted...

Firstly, the only way I can see it taking 20 years to reach black belt is if you're either very very bad or you do like 10 lessons a year...

Black belt is not top of the tree.

Your proper training starts when you start, but until you get to first Dan you're a beginner - first Dan is 'novice'. That's the point where you (should) have a good understanding of the fundamentals and are in a position to build upon those.

If you can't apply what you get taught at your first few white belt lessons then that's on you I'm afraid.

Maybe a mix of. I have seen some high belts not do walking stance well. (comment by the teacher not a observation of mine)



To clear this up(if it needs it), i didnt claim what i thought of for grading people was not subject to the same argument and i didn't state any method you could think of grading people was not. Maybe unclear wording but thats a theme of mine. I put a confession in the brackets next to it saying it could still be used to hold back information or fast track you to make you think you are doing something well.





Also none of you are taking my 12th degree pink belt away from me!

Fair enough for the rest of it though. Next post by me will be about punching. (more than likely...)

 

[skribs]

Maybe a mix of. I have seen some high belts not do walking stance well. (comment by the teacher not a observation of mine)

To be perfectly frank, that's why we're saying "go to class." Because I'd say unless you've been dedicated to an art for at least 20 years, you probably still need instruction in it. I did Taekwondo 3 days a week for about 4 years as a kid, and 6 days a week for 5 years as an adult (well, 3-4 days a week for 1 year, and 6 days a week for the next 4). So if you average that out, it's 5 days a week for 9 years. And I definitely am still learning, and I definitely need instruction.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Question on punching exercises.

Do cable machines work to practice punching? I was thinking about it and have no idea if you could use them practice punching with or if they would be any good for it.

Another one i have, i read somewhere that bench presses were good for building up punching strength and speed but to focus on doing more of a cardio workout with a weight you can lift fast and many times rather than a heavy weight you can lift less and slower.

 

[skribs]

Question on punching exercises.

Do cable machines work to practice punching? I was thinking about it and have no idea if you could use them practice punching with or if they would be any good for it.

Another one i have, i read somewhere that bench presses were good for building up punching strength and speed but to focus on doing more of a cardio workout with a weight you can lift fast and many times rather than a heavy weight you can lift less and slower.

Diagonal situps and squats will help with your punch strength too. The punch is as much from your core twisting and your foot pressing against the ground as it is from arm strength.

As you mentioned in your OP, there are a lot of different kinds of punches. Chest and triceps (i.e. bench) will be good for a reverse punch. A jab is going to be more in the triceps, and there's better ways to isolate that muscle than a bench. Hooks will benefit from different chest muscles and biceps. Uppercuts and underpunches will come more from the shoulder. Backfists from a different part of the shoulder. So different punches require different exercises.

If you want to hit harder, go for lower reps at higher weight. If you want to last longer go for higher reps at lower weight. If you want to go for speed, punch faster in practice.

However, for any of that, actually training the punches is going to give you more benefit than any weightlifting will.

• Doing the punch correctly will impart a much bigger percentage of your body's total strength into the punch
• Doing the punch correctly will be a more efficient movement, making it easier to do over and over
• Doing the punch correctly will be a more efficient movement, making it faster

Now, keep in mind that I'm not a physical training expert. If you want expert advice, I'd ask someone who is an expert in that field. But going to class will make your punches stronger, faster, and easier.