All I'm saying is he's NOT the litmus test for HKD kicking. I never said he was, he was nothing more than an example that I chose to use to indicate the TKD/HKD interface. As you pointed out, many TKD folks have entered into HKD, for HKD is the perferred Self defense training for these folks. My original contention was that the older TKD practicioners were getting this training, perhaps not as indepth as some would like, but they were being trained. This whole thread was kind of blown out of proportion because I interjected this assessment. Sorry for the disruptive direction it has taken. The original intent of this thread was the difference between HKD and TKD and modern TKD is far removed from HKD.