differences between Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by matt.m, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. Brad Dunne

    Brad Dunne Brown Belt

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    All I'm saying is he's NOT the litmus test for HKD kicking.

    I never said he was, he was nothing more than an example that I chose to use to indicate the TKD/HKD interface.

    As you pointed out, many TKD folks have entered into HKD, for HKD is the perferred Self defense training for these folks. My original contention was that the older TKD practicioners were getting this training, perhaps not as indepth as some would like, but they were being trained.

    This whole thread was kind of blown out of proportion because I interjected this assessment. Sorry for the disruptive direction it has taken. The original intent of this thread was the difference between HKD and TKD and modern TKD is far removed from HKD.
     
  2. matt.m

    matt.m Senior Master

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    Everyone please look at my first post that began the topic. It will show that I did the break down of two different cirriculums of the two different arts. I used the example of two different side kicks, we see what has happened.
     
  3. matt.m

    matt.m Senior Master

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    Least I forget, Howard Thank you. For the life of me I could not remember the proper spelling of Jungki. That is why I had put "Choi Purists"
     
  4. howard

    howard Brown Belt

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    For my part, that absolutely is not what I meant. Look, these are simple facts:

    1. The head of the Jungkikwan spent over twenty years training directly under Choi.

    2. He has always maintained that he teaches exactly what Choi taught him.

    Therefore, Jungki Hapkido is a faithful representation of what GM Lim learned from Choi.

    These points do not imply anythnig about any other style of Hapkido. To infer that they do is simply erroneous logic.

    In the context of the topic of this thread, the ten kicks that Choi taught GM Lim look nothing like TKD kicks.
     
  5. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    I think part of the problem with this discussion is that the basic premise of the the thread is "the difference between A and B" but A and B are not rigidly defined in the first place and there is almost as much variation within both A and B as there is between the two.

    I'll give an example with a simple kick, the roundhouse kick.

    Now, when I first learned a roundhouse (RH) kick, it was taught to me by a 2nd Dan TKD instructor with some background in HKD as well (I don't know his ranking but he claimed to be about 70/30 TKD/HKD). The way I was taught this kick was to drive straight at the target with the knee, and then turn the hip over to hit with the instep. Your kicking foot comes across horzontally to the target, your pivot foot ends up completely turned around facing the opposite direction. Your body is i a straight line from your shoulder to your foot. That, to me, is a roundhouse kick. Now, I went to another school and the instructor is a 7th Dan TKD gentleman who was a big time sport competitor in the 70s. He teaches the RH kick to come up at 45 degree angle, and the pivot foot only turns about half way, and your upper body only turns about 25 degrees itself. It's faster than the way I learned the RH kick, but it's also less powerful. (I take to calling them the "Combot RH" and "Sport RH" because the first seems better for really infliciting damage with one kick, but the second seems quicker for sport sparring) Now, to add to this, another student in the class, named Cha who is about my age (37) and whose dad helped bring TKD to the US back in the 70s and who studied TKD as a kid, he said that the way I do the RH kick is the old-school, traditional, TKD, fighting style. Then I spend two weeks in a TKD school that is mortly sport with a bit of self-defense, and the instructor (and ex-US Olympic team competitor) is teaching the RH kick like I first learned, with the full hip and shoulder turn over. ThenI go to the Hapkido school with a 6th Dan HKD instructor who also does TKD and some other arts, and he teaches *both* versions of the kick, but calls the first one a "roundhouse kick" and the second one a "round kick". (and when my current instructor was talking about the 'round' kick, someone else mentioned that it was 'the TKD version' of the roundhouse kick

    So the point is, what's a TKD roundhouse kick? Um...depends on who you ask, who their teacher was, and what they are trying to accomplish with the kick. Baoth of them start with the same motion (drive the knee straight forward at the target before turning into the kick) but they differ in execution and effect from there.

    And I don't think that's really a "TKD kick". I mean, Muy Thai has a kick called a 'roundhouse' kick but which is mechanically a lot different than either of those two varients. And I think other arts use a 'roundhouse' kick which is similar to one of the above. So i's really hard to call a roundhouse kick a "TKD roundhouse kick" because a) TKD is not the only one to use it and b) not all people in TKD use the same roundhouse kick.

    And that's just from the TKD side on *one* technique, from my own limited exposure from people who were all under WTF TKD. Given that there are many TKD organizations, and many HKD organizations that all may have variations in philosophy or application, it's a bit difficult to say "this is a HKD roundhouse and that is a TKD roundhouse" and then compare or contrast them. Maybe 50 years ago TKD had a definitive roundhouse and HKD had a distinct definitive roundhouse where you go do that, but I think over time people evolve what works and what doesn't and are exposed to other things and things change so that now a HKD roundhouse and a TKD roundhouse are not distinct things but you may find a HKD instructor teaching a roundhouse the same as the TKD guy down the street and but not the same as the TKD guy across town.

    And when you get into the ring or some other place, the mechanics are not perfect. When I try to throw my technically-best roundhouse kick, it comes across with a tight chamber and in close. When I'm sparring, I'm not as precise so I tend to be loooser and swing a bit wider. I think that's true of most people. So when watching someone do a particular movements, before declaring that it is *the way* that a given art does a technique, consider the context. Even people who use the 'combat RH' kick are probably going to shorten it a bit in sparring. Unless someone is trying to demonstrate a given technique for the sake of an example, what you see executed may not be the best example.


    (And for what it's worth, I think the reason that 'it always comes down to kicks' is that TKD sparring is the most visible, and often the most practiced for those who focus on competitions, aspect of TKD so when you look at TKD from the outside, you see the kicks, so when you compare anything with TKD, you tend to compare with the kicks. Unless you really spend the time working or at least observing, TKD poomse and one-steps and other parts of the TKD curriculum, you don't see the blocks and hand strikes and movements, much less the theory behind them)

    So when comparing A vs B, keep in mind that the edges and definitions of both A and B can be quite a bit fuzzy and try to avoid simplistic definitions and hasty generalizations
     
  6. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    I should say that this doesn't mean I think Hapkido and Taekwondo are 'the same', simply that they may share many common techniques where the difference in execution of those techniques may be as much a reflection of the individual practioner, instructor, or school of thought as it is a "Taekwondo vs Hapkido" distinction.


    The other thing to think about is that since many instructors who teach Taekwondo also know Hapkido, and vice versa, unless an instructor is focused on teaching a 'pure, traditional' curriculum, you're likely to run into situations where a teacher will teach techniques or approaches that are not traditionally part of that art. But over time, those techniques get passed down and incorporated so that those techniques are, for all practical purposes, part of the art. "Tradtional TKD" may not have joint locks, ut many people who teach "traditional tkd" for self-defense will incorporate joint locks and manipulation as 'something that works', so the Taekwondo of 20 years from now may indeed be considered to have joint locks. And Hapkido may have more hard linear attacks reminiscent of Taekwondo, etc..etc..

    Today is just a snapshot of a very dynamic world, as science improves are understanding of body dynamics and motion and experience proves what is useful and not, things change and improve and are removed. All you can say is what Taekwondo is today, or what Hapkido was at some point in time, but tomorrow, they will both be different anyway.
     
  7. American HKD

    American HKD Brown Belt

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    Absolutely a gperfect point!

    One needs to know the differnce to discuss the difference!
     
  8. PWilliams-HKD

    PWilliams-HKD White Belt

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    Greetings

    I'm hearing some very mistaken elements regarding HKD kicks.

    Original HKD kicks and the method of chambering and executing is NOT the same as TKD.

    HKD kicks are loosey chambered, have more use of the hips, work on swinging or pendulum like theories almost exclusively. Not linear or mixed at all.

    A lot of mixing from TKD & HKD kicks have accured because many people learned TKD first than moved to HKD and kept their TKD kicks as is.

    HKD is a soft style kicking method, TKD is a Hard Style Karate system they don't mix except to the un-trained eye.



    Best answer yet.
     
  9. Hapkiyoosool

    Hapkiyoosool White Belt

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    Wow....long forum but worth the read!
    It seems that there are almost as many HKD styles out thwre as TKD.
    I think when stop comparing styles and just appreciate them, we will have a better understanding of each other.
    GM Choi came to the west in (1982 or 84 if I remember correctly) to try and unify the HKD folk. He said, "it's so difficult when everyone wants to be the sun instead of just being the moon to reflect the truth".
    Sadly, I an not sure he died satisfied.
    I am not one for formalities so forgive me if I come across "rough around the edges".
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017 at 10:52 PM

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