differences between Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do

[howard]

It was said that Choi only had 10 kicks and they were all low.

Hi Brad,

If you check out the latest issue of Black Belt magazine, you'll see an article about the ten kicks that Choi taught GM Lim Hyun Soo of the Jungkikwan. GM Lim trained directly with Choi for over 20 years. One or two of the kicks are to targets above the waist, but the rest are low, as you say.

However, we can't say conclusively that Choi always taught these ten kicks to all of his students. We know from information available from various of Choi's direct students that he taught different material to different people at different times in his life. So, it's possible that he taught other kicks to other students, even though I'm not aware of any examples of this.

Old school TKD has roots in Hapkido...

Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning, I have to disagree with you here.

Old-school TKD has its roots in Japanese and Okinawan Karate that some Koreans learned in Japan. They took what they had learned back to Korea and began teaching it after the end of the Japanese occupation. Most of them had trained in Shotokan.

Hapkido was just getting started in Korea at this time. Choi's first student in Korea began training under him in, I believe, 1947. I'm not aware of any of the original Korean Karate kwan heads studying under Choi Young Sool.

And, we can be sure that, whatever the art was that Choi learned in Japan, it was not Karate-based. There is very little similarity between Choi's original art and the Korean Karate that preceded the creation of TKD.

Regards, Howard

 

[matt.m]

Hi Brad,

If you check out the latest issue of Black Belt magazine, you'll see an article about the ten kicks that Choi taught GM Lim Hyun Soo of the Jungkikwan. GM Lim trained directly with Choi for over 20 years. One or two of the kicks are to targets above the waist, but the rest are low, as you say.

However, we can't say conclusively that Choi always taught these ten kicks to all of his students. We know from information available from various of Choi's direct students that he taught different material to different people at different times in his life. So, it's possible that he taught other kicks to other students, even though I'm not aware of any examples of this.


Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning, I have to disagree with you here.

Old-school TKD has its roots in Japanese and Okinawan Karate that some Koreans learned in Japan. They took what they had learned back to Korea and began teaching it after the end of the Japanese occupation. Most of them had trained in Shotokan.

Hapkido was just getting started in Korea at this time. Choi's first student in Korea began training under him in, I believe, 1947. I'm not aware of any of the original Korean Karate kwan heads studying under Choi Young Sool.

And, we can be sure that, whatever the art was that Choi learned in Japan, it was not Karate-based. There is very little similarity between Choi's original art and the Korean Karate that preceded the creation of TKD.

Regards, Howard

Howard,

I have to agree with you almost entirely. It is true that Choi taught a little differently in different parts of his life. Ji Han Jae and Won Kwang Wha studied under Choi at the same time. It was part of their day to day life. The two most senior hapkido black belts in Moo Sul Kwan hapkido have even told me that even Great Grandmaster Park, who learned from Won-Kwang Wha could at times change a follow up to a technique from a punch to a stomp kick. However, the core technique would stay the same.

Ji Han Jae and Won Kwang Wha are both notable high kickers. Both students of Choi. Grandmaster Hildebrand (7th dan TKD and 5th dan HKD) as well as my pop (5th dan HKD) are very observant to the differences, no matter how large or astute they may be from tkd and hkd.

Howard, thank you again for pointing out that tkd is a derivitative of shotokan karate. An off branch and the Koreans changed it and made it their own. Korean Karate is what Tae Kwon Do became.

I guess I should clarify the whole side kick analogy as well. The tkd schools I have seen the half baked round kicks being called side kicks are more sport orientated. They seems to hide behind the guise of self defense though.

 

[American HKD]

Paul eluded to the precepts of Hapkido and that TKD does not follow the same. Again I must defer to the element of two seperate venues of TKD, which is what the initial discourse was about. Yes, modern day TKD is a very different discipline then that of it's formation platform. Now given that distinction, the concepts of self defense embraces both HKD and TKD and come from the same foundations of training. One should remember that Korean MA practicioners were already trained in various disciplines long before Choi introduced his version of Daito Ryu, which eventually became what now is known as Hapkido. Additionally, with the many variations of Hapkido, does anyone honestly think that the other disciplines that were already being practiced, did not interject themselves into what the training was/has become? I have seen spinning kicks, jump turning kicks and an assortment of other flashy kicks done at Hapkido seminars. These same kicks have been done at TKD seminars/tournaments, Karate and Kung Fu demonstrations and so on. Even the close range (grappling) area has kicks that Hapkido likes to claim as their own, but have been done in other style as well. Not to belabor the point, but the vast majority of the kicks are delivered the same in all of the disciplines. Perhaps this is the rational behind what Stuart stated, folks learned TKD first and then went into Hapkido and kicked the same way. I say so what, if the job gets done and the elements of a successful self defense are present. That kick, most times is going to set up a takedown or throw and if that's done according to Hapkidos protocals, then to me your doing Hapkido.

Greetings

Brad I thinks it's more than just getting the job done because any stlye can have a kick that gets the job done. Right?

Some people want to keep the system in tact and teach HKD methods.

HKD has 2 sources of kicks.

1. Choi
2. Ji Han Jae an Kim Moo Hwang these folks introduced the various kicks into HKD and there is a perfered method of doing them that follows certain principles of a soft sytle MA.

They are absolutely not TKD methods even for the same types of kicks. Another words both system have side kicks but they're not done the same way.

My point that some people actually want to keep thier style in tact, rather than mix in any old kick that works.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Who to answer first? We'll start with Howard............When I stated that early TKD had/has roots in Hapkido was based upon what I said on a prior post. The Koreans were already training in several disciplines prior to Choi, as you pointed out. When Choi came on the menu, these folks undertook the study of what he was presenting. When it came time for the formulation of TKD, it's only logical to assume that those that participated were/had some training in Choi's art. I personally base this on the instructions from the older Korean instructors I have studied under, plus the added information presented by them. I suggested that they had roots, but not that deep.

As for the kicking aspect that Stuart mentions. This is where a lot of confusion stems from. Stuart stated that there is a perfered way of doing them and inturn allows for keeping the style intact. Again I would like to reference a prior post that listed looking at Fariborz Azhakh, who to my knowledge is listed as a Sin Moo stylist as is Stuart. The kicks that are shown are the same that was shown to me in my training and look all that of early TKD. The same by the way as those of Bong Soo Han, the so-called introducer of Hapkido to America.

Matt M. relates the version of a "half baked" roundhouse that's supposed to be a sidekick. Sorry, but I have a hard time even trying to imagine what that could look like, moreover having the kick be effective. There's no way that the two kicks can be interchanged. The transition of the body is out of positioning. But now here again, this may be the proof of the pudding so to speak. A true side kick is a linear strike, with a tucked/chambered knee close to the body. The same way that I have seen it delivered in many Hapkido and TKD seminars by the older practicioners. A roundhouse kicks is a circular strike and can be done with either a chambered knee or a somewhat straight leg. There is no correct way - in my opinion - that these kicks can be mistaken for one another. Unless...........yes unless someone was shown the wrong way and now we have another quandry to ponder.

Folks, bottom line here is that the majority of Hapkido folks like/wish to believe what they practice is a pure untainted art. We all know better. It came from Japan and was infused with other aspects and then reinfused from within by it's own students. I'm not saying that early TKD was the equal to Hapkido, no it wasen't and could not have been, they were different disciplines but there was an interweaving by the originators of TKD for they were versed , at least in the basics, of Hapkido and many if not all of the self defense techniques were from the Hapkido training that these folks received. Nothing more, nothing less.........

 

[American HKD]

Greetings



..........A true side kick is a linear strike, with a tucked/chambered knee close to the body. The same way that I have seen it delivered in many Hapkido and TKD seminars by the older practicioners............

What you described is not the HKD method taught in Sin Moo HKD. Fariborz Azhakh although he's avery good kicker it's almost pure TKD when I saw him.

Hapkido side kick lifts the knee straight up like a front kick in a loose fashion (not chambered tight or close to the body) and all at once we turn the hip sideway lean down level to the ground and kick. Our body is in a straight line from the ankle to the shoulder.

Look on my web site there a couple of pictuces of me and my teacher doing a side kick HKD style.

Our round, front, and side are all chamber the same so you can't tell whats comming.

 

[iron_ox]

Folks, bottom line here is that the majority of Hapkido folks like/wish to believe what they practice is a pure untainted art. We all know better. It came from Japan and was infused with other aspects and then reinfused from within by it's own students. I'm not saying that early TKD was the equal to Hapkido, no it wasen't and could not have been, they were different disciplines but there was an interweaving by the originators of TKD for they were versed , at least in the basics, of Hapkido and many if not all of the self defense techniques were from the Hapkido training that these folks received. Nothing more, nothing less.........

Hello all,

There is a timeline issue here certainly. Choi, Hong Hi for one was not versed at all in Hapkido. That is why he had Chung, Kee Tae from Toronto shot the self defense section of the "orange book" of TaeKwon do.

There is no way that those first TKD people were "versed" in HKD - the first TKD Kwan was founded in 1955 - JI Han Jae, one of the first to teach HKD outside of Taegu did not do so until late 1957.

Timeline is off here Mr. Dunne.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Almost getting into a who's who here. I'm kind of confused here with Stuarts reply. If Fariborz Azhakh is all TKD with his kicks, but is a certified/registered Hapkido instructor, how did he get by if his instructors in Hapkido didn't correct him with his technique with kicks? After all, as you pointed out that's not the way Sin Moo folks kick, if in fact he is a Sin Moo practicioner. I know that sounds really picky, but it does add a valid equation to the mix.

As for the time line that's been brought to question, the initial reference was to the glut of instructors who came to America in the early 70's. Iron Ox may be totally correct in his time line assessment as to when TKD started and Jae first started teaching, but that dosen't have a bearing on what was brought to our shores during the stated time frame. Perhaps I was overly generous with the assessment of the founding fathers, but therein also lies another distinction. Who can say that just because Jae started teaching in 57 that nobody was instructed prior to that, that had ties to the formulation of TKD. Just food for thought.

Appriciate all the reply's that have been given.

 

[American HKD]

Almost getting into a who's who here. I'm kind of confused here with Stuarts reply. If Yakan Dalawa is all TKD with his kicks, but is a certified/registered Hapkido instructor, how did he get by if his instructors in Hapkido didn't correct him with his technique with kicks? After all, as you pointed out that's not the way Sin Moo folks kick, if in fact he is a Sin Moo practicioner. I know that sounds really picky, but it does add a valid equation to the mix.

As for the time line that's been brought to question, the initial reference was to the glut of instructors who came to America in the early 70's. Iron Ox may be totally correct in his time line assessment as to when TKD started and Jae first started teaching, but that dosen't have a bearing on what was brought to our shores during the stated time frame. Perhaps I was overly generous with the assessment of the founding fathers, but therein also lies another distinction. Who can say that just because Jae started teaching in 57 that nobody was instructed prior to that, that had ties to the formulation of TKD. Just food for thought.

Appriciate all the reply's that have been given.

Greetings,

From your questions I'm starting to think you don't train in HKD or don't have much expirience, they tend to be very much on the surface with no depth to the art?

Fariborz Azhakh came to Sin Moo after he was a 2nd or 3rd dan? I don't know where he first learned to kick (he's very good) but different???

Only a person who had the training in the original system would know the difference, you either got it or not!

 

[Brad Dunne]

Fariborz Azhakh came to Sin Moo after he was a 2nd or 3rd dan? I don't know where he first learned to kick (he's very good) but different???

So different is apparently OK within the Sin Moo house, because that's how I read this. It really dosen't answer the question that posed, but that's OK.

Only a person who had the training in the original system would know the difference, you either got it or not!

???????????Got what? Apparently he's got something (see above) that his instructors deemed good and thusly granted him Hapkido ranking(s).

From your questions I'm starting to think you don't train in HKD or don't have much expirience, they tend to be very much on the surface with no depth to the art?

In the course of a debate, when one party deems it valid to question the other parties experience, this usually means that a nerve has been hit and that party has become offended. You have always carried yourself with a professional attitude on these boards. Now I find my self a little "vaklempt" (from SNL ).There is nothing personal in this, at least from my perspective. No allegations have been made, just questions seeking answers.

 

[matt.m]

Ok guys, look I began this thread to have a nice polite discussion. When I began it, I meant to pick out the major cirriculum differences between the two arts. This was to show how they were separate arts that stand on their own.

I know what I am about to say may be construed as rabal rousing, however it is not intended that way. However: Moo Sul Kwan, Sin Moo, and Kuk Sool hapkido followed by the "Choi Purists" are the only true to form original strains of hapkido, to my knowledge. To say different would be to devalidate Ji Han Jae, Won-Kwang Wha, He-Young Kimm etc.

I asked dad not too long ago why hapkido was not standardized like tae kwon do, with the poomse. He answered with the following "Great Grandmaster Park once said that Choi didn't want his first students to teach their students the exact same thing." That is why the wrist and clothes techniques of Moo Sul Kwan hapkido and Kuk Sool hapkido look a little alike but are not the same.

In my class we have a first dan that was one of Jim West's students. We find it a pleasure to cross train with him and vice versa. It is a different take on hapkido.

Oh by the way, I have read where Choi once said he learned 3808 techniques from Takeda. That would leave a lot of room for variation from student to student would it not?

 

[howard]

Moo Sul Kwan, Sin Moo, and Kuk Sool hapkido followed by the "Choi Purists" are the only true to form original strains of hapkido, to my knowledge. To say different would be to devalidate Ji Han Jae, Won-Kwang Wha, He-Young Kimm etc.

Hi Matt,

You can add Jungki Hapkido to that list. The head of the Jungkikwan, GM Lim Hyun Soo, was Choi's direct student for over twenty years. Jungki Hapkido is based entirely on what Choi taught GM Lim. That's why we only do the ten kicks that are described in that Black Belt article.

I asked dad not too long ago why hapkido was not standardized like tae kwon do, with the poomse. He answered with the following "Great Grandmaster Park once said that Choi didn't want his first students to teach their students the exact same thing."

From the reliable evidence that is available, I believe it's fair to say that Choi did indeed teach differently to different students. In order for Choi to teach you certain things, you had to prove your loyalty to him by training under him, and only him, for quite some time. Since his training was so rigorous, not many were willing to do this. But the ones that did learned the essence of what Choi himself learned in Japan.

Oh by the way, I have read where Choi once said he learned 3808 techniques from Takeda. That would leave a lot of room for variation from student to student would it not?

GM Lim tells us the same thing. To be precise, he once quoted to a group of us the number 3,806. Ahh, what the hell difference do two techniques make among nearly 4,000?

Brad, please stay in the discussion... I know Stuart, and trust me, he doesn't mean any harm. He's a very good guy.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Brad, please stay in the discussion... I know Stuart, and trust me, he doesn't mean any harm. He's a very good guy.

I have no doubt that he is, I have nothing but respect for anyone that trains and is loyal to their art. I was just making an observation from the posted reply.

But now with Matts post and your addition of Jungki Hapkido to that list, it kind of gives the impression that if one is not affiliated with those styles, then one is not really practicing Hapkido. I realize that this statement opens the "Pandora's Box' so to speak, but it really just adds to the confusion of the subject and we're kind of getting off track somewhat or are we? Just who or what are the honest to goodness real Hapkido styles out there. I realize that the KHF lists over 40 Kwans that they recognize and then we have the Kido with unk number of kwans recognized and then there's the IHF, the new Korean Kido and the list goes on. It's been said that Choi taught different things to different folks, for whatever reason. This element alone allows for input from the student himself, which I understand is what Choi intended. So in light of that aspect, Hapkido is and should be ever evolving. So because one dosen't kick the same way as another venue of the Hapkido tree, this alone means that Hapkido is not being practiced? Lots of food for thought here.

 

[iron_ox]

Who can say that just because Jae started teaching in 57 that nobody was instructed prior to that, that had ties to the formulation of TKD. Just food for thought.

Hello all,

Actually, we can say with some degree of certainty that Ji Han Jae was the first person teaching what he learned from Dojunim Choi in Seoul. The art was not started until 1947, and Ji started at age 13 in 1949. The bulk of other students were in Taegu - and since travel around Korea was and remained difficult even through the 1970's it is reasonable to assume that there was not much other instruction going on.

In addition, having been lucky enough to have a connection to GM Rhee Ki Ha, Gen. Choi's first TKD 9th Dan, I can tell you that his impression of any type of Hapkido style technique generally resulted in him saying "Time to hold is time to hit...".

There simply was no connection between the two at the time of their foundation. But history is a fuzzy thing, so keep doing research, maybe a smoking gun is out there somewhere...

Fariborz Azhakh's first teacher if memory serves was GM Han Bong Soo. This would explain the kicking for sure.

 

[shesulsa]

There are LOTS of threads in the Hapkido forum debating the origins of Hapkido.

But weren't we discussing the differences between Hapkido and TKD?? *looks at thread title* Yep. We were.

 

[Brad Dunne]

There are LOTS of threads in the Hapkido forum debating the origins of Hapkido.

I'm SURE there are, but nobody is debating origins.......

But weren't we discussing the differences between Hapkido and TKD?? *looks at thread title* Yep. We were.

Yep!, we still are. artyon:

 

[American HKD]

Fariborz Azhakh came to Sin Moo after he was a 2nd or 3rd dan? I don't know where he first learned to kick (he's very good) but different???

So different is apparently OK within the Sin Moo house, because that's how I read this. It really dosen't answer the question that posed, but that's OK.

Only a person who had the training in the original system would know the difference, you either got it or not!

???????????Got what? Apparently he's got something (see above) that his instructors deemed good and thusly granted him Hapkido ranking(s).

From your questions I'm starting to think you don't train in HKD or don't have much expirience, they tend to be very much on the surface with no depth to the art?

In the course of a debate, when one party deems it valid to question the other parties experience, this usually means that a nerve has been hit and that party has become offended. You have always carried yourself with a professional attitude on these boards. Now I find my self a little "vaklempt" (from SNL ).There is nothing personal in this, at least from my perspective. No allegations have been made, just questions seeking answers.

Brad

I'm not being personal, but it is frustrating to hear over and over any old kick will sufice or TKD & HKD kicks are the same! To me that's like saying Black & White are the same color!

Expirience and first hand knowledge should not be taken lightly! When people on board speaks who has the knowledge and explain something to you take note.

Investigate that's all good but don't say one guy from Sin Moo kick like this so that's the right way. That's just not any valid proof.

Do this just for kicks, no pun intended. Rent some movies with these people and you'll see perfect examples of HKD kicking methods.

Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Angela Mao (enter the dragon Lee's sister), Hwang In Shik (several bruce lee & jakie chan movies), Ji Han Jae himself in Lady Hapkido, they all kick HKD style.

Watch their movements and see how loosely they chamber and the more circular motions, compared to Joon Rhee kicks in TKD Strikes, He Ill Cho, or other pure TKD Masters. You will see a big difference!!!

This should be you gauge for qualifying what HKD kicking is!

Master Hwang's Bio:

If you know the old school kung fu flicks of the 1970's, chances are you have seen Grandmaster Hwang In-Shik. Hwang was born in Korea and studies the art of Hapkido under the art's founder, Choi Yong-Sul. Hwang made his film debut in 1972's Hapkido. Hwang was the Hapkido teacher of the film's co-stars Angela Mao and Sammo Hung. Rumors (that later proved to be untrue) went around that Hwang would beat stuntmen up for real to show Hapkido's superiority to Chinese martial arts. This made one man want to teach the Hapkido expert a lesson. He was Bruce Lee and in Way of the Dragon, Hwang was beaten not only by Bruce but also Chuck Norris, an expert in the Korean art of Tang Soo Do. After the experience, Hwang showed respect for the Chinese martial arts and in fact, became an excellent villain actor in many films. In 1980, The Young Master proved to be Hwang's best performance. For 15 minutes, Hwang gets to show off the true style of hapkido by beating up Jackie Chan. After 1983's A Fistful of Talons, Hwang officially retired from the film industry. Today, Hwang, who holds a 10th-degree black belt in Hapkido, is in Canada, where he is teaching the art of Hapkido to many students.

FILMOGRAPHY

Hapkido with Ji han Jae & ngela Mao (1972)
Way of the Dragon (1973)
Fist of Unicorn (1973)
The Devil's Treasure (1973)
When Tae Kwon Do Strikes with Joon Rhee TKD (1973)
The Skyhawk (1974)
Stoner (1974)
The Tournament (1974)
The Association (1975)
The Close Kung Fu Encounter (1979)
The Young Master (1980)
Dragon Lord (1982)
A Fistful of Talons (1983)

 

[Paul B]

Amazing..it always comes back to kicks.:uhyeah:

Seriously now. What about the untold kajillions of variations of jointlocks,throws,chokes,etc?

Are we saying that TKD-in execute flowing joint locks and throws? Are we saying that TKD-in use small,tight circles in those joint locks. How about Harmony? Last time I saw TKD-in practice it was kick and smash with no worry about not meeting force head on. How about when TKD-in practice blocking or parrying? Regrabs? Hooking? PP's?

Kicking is such a minute part of HKD curriculum. I just don't understand why it's *that* important to focus on kicks. :idunno: Are they important? Yep. And yes..some styles have different methods of kicking..but when asked to perform a technique,what technique would you demonstrate 9 times out of 10?

 

[Brad Dunne]

Investigate that's all good but don't say one guy from Sin Moo kick like this so that's the right way. That's just not any valid proof.

Nobody has said that. The reference was that you stated that Fariborz Azhakh was TKD before coming to Hapkido. All I asked was and also based upon your statement that Sin Moo stylists don't kick like that, was how did he become a Hapkidoist in the Sin Moo style and yet he kicks different from your training. The entire point to this debate is the connection, however small it may be to folks, that Hapkido and TKD were hand and hand at one time. I'm not saying they still are, but all the evidence is there and has been stated, perhaps unwittingly, on this board. Case in point; Bong Soo Han is Hapkido and reportedly Azhakh trained under him, thus the rational for the way he kicks.

Expirience and first hand knowledge should not be taken lightly! When people on board speaks who has the knowledge and explain something to you take note.

Nevermind...................

You want me to go and watch movies, but don't offer any popcorn.
I have watched my share of movies and training tapes and that's another reason why my conclusions are as they are. I'm talking in generalities and your focusing on one style, your own, which has something unaccountable to answer. See Above.

I respect your intent to validate your art and style, but with all the variations of the art out there, well we'll just leave it there.:asian:

 

[Brad Dunne]

http://www.sinmoohapkido.com/kicking.html
Just offering some information here, that may help some folks with their interpertation of discriptions.
Please take note of the several kicks that use the term "High Tuck". To me that's another way of saying "Chambered"

 

[American HKD]

Investigate that's all good but don't say one guy from Sin Moo kick like this so that's the right way. That's just not any valid proof.

Nobody has said that. The reference was that you stated that Fariborz Azhakh was TKD before coming to Hapkido. No I said he came from another HKD teacher before Sin Moo, and secondly many TKD people came into HKD later and kept their TKD kicks and added HKD skills to the existing kicks.

All I asked was and also based upon your statement that Sin Moo stylists don't kick like that, was how did he become a Hapkidoist in the Sin Moo style and yet he kicks different from your training. He came to Sin Moo with prior training and never changed but that's the Master's problem not mine. Unfortunately this is common issue amongst many HKD people.

The entire point to this debate is the connection, however small it may be to folks, that Hapkido and TKD were hand and hand at one time. I'm not saying they still are, but all the evidence is there and has been stated, perhaps unwittingly, on this board. Case in point; Bong Soo Han is Hapkido and reportedly Azhakh trained under him, thus the rational for the way he kicks. I know Azhakah trained his first couple of dans under Steve Sexton. Bong Soo Han??? All I'm saying is he's NOT the litmus test for HKD kicking, These people in the movies I suggested are!

Expirience and first hand knowledge should not be taken lightly! When people on board speaks who has the knowledge and explain something to you take note.

Nevermind...................

You want me to go and watch movies, but don't offer any popcorn. Sorry
I have watched my share of movies and training tapes and that's another reason why my conclusions are as they are. I'm talking in generalities and your focusing on one style, your own, which has something unaccountable to answer. See Above.

Yes this thread is about the difference between HKD & TKD so I am being specific.

I respect your intent to validate your art and style, but with all the variations of the art out there, well we'll just leave it there.:asian:

It's not about me validating HKD that was done by the founders, I just want people to know there's a real difference in the kicking style.

Thanks that's all I'm done!:asian: