Defendu, Defendo, and Combato

[Cruentus]

What are your thoughts on these systems?

:asian:

 

[tmanifold]

Defendo and Combato are the same thing unless you mean modern Defendo ala Bill Wolfe.

Defendu (Gutterfighting) is Fairbairn's system and one of the best Combat systems ever. The real expert on this is Carl Cestari. A google search will turn up alot of good material from him.

Defendo/Combato was designed by Bill Underwood around the same time Fairbairn was forumlating defendu. Underwood was a canadian and quite possible taught at Camp X around the same time as fairbairn. Their systems were designed independantly, however. My take on Defendo is that Bill Underwood was amazing but that stuff is a little hard for us normal folk to pull of.

Modern defendo is also a good system but is totally seperate from the other two. I have a theory that Wolfe was exposed to Defendo through the Canadian Army but I have no proof on that one. Wolfe's system is a mix of hapkido, boxing, greco roman wrestling and a few other things.

I would rate them Defendu 1st, Modern Defendo 2nd and Defendo/combato 3rd.

Tony

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tmanifold
Modern defendo

There is an article on this in the current (Jan. 2004) issue of Black Belt.

 

[jellyman]

I have a theory that Wolfe was exposed to Defendo through the Canadian Army but I have no proof on that one. Wolfe's system is a mix of hapkido, boxing, greco roman wrestling and a few other things.

H2H in the Canadian forces is based on Hapkido. It is very likely that Wolfe picked up his combatized Hapkido that way. Specifically for PPCLI and the now defunct Airborne. JTF2, our most elite unit (and considered very elite worldwide, more secret than SAS) also has H2H training that rumour has is directly descended from camp X.

 

[tmanifold]

It may be based on Hapkido now (If it is I haven't seen the pub. yet) but in the late 80's and early 90's it was shotokan karate. I know of a couple people who picked up some very defendo looking stuff in the 70's so they may have been doing that before the karate.

Recently I have heard that Wolfe was very critical of Underwood and denouced his methods so I could be wrong on that acccount as well.

Tony

 

[frank raud]

Dredging this up from the murky past. What are people's current thoughts on these systems?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Dredging this up from the murky past. What are people's current thoughts on these systems?

I think that the arts mentioned, Defendu in particular, are the fastest most efficient means by which the average person could prepare for a life and death unarmed conflict.

The modern Defendo from Canada that is largely HKD and Western Boxing, is a completely different system, IMO, and emphasizes similiarities with "Defendu" and other WW2 systmes for marketing purposes. I'm sure it's an adequate system, just not the same.

 

[frank raud]

I think that the arts mentioned, Defendu in particular, are the fastest most efficient means by which the average person could prepare for a life and death unarmed conflict.

The modern Defendo from Canada that is largely HKD and Western Boxing, is a completely different system, IMO, and emphasizes similiarities with "Defendu" and other WW2 systmes for marketing purposes. I'm sure it's an adequate system, just not the same.

Jonathan, I'm going to disagree with you,but only on a technicality. Defendu was the style that Fairbairn taught to the Shanghai police. It is preserved in his book Defendu(1926) and Scientific Self Defense(1931). Defendu covers a lot of control and restraint techniques that are not in the WWII syllabuses from Fairbairn and Applegate. These techniques were omitted due to impracticality for the task at hand, and time constraints in teaching.


I will absolutely agree that Bill Wolfe's Modern Defendo is predominantly HKD, boxing and greco-roman. There is no connection with Underwood's Defendo, and less with Fairbairn. His claim that boxing is the basis of the H2H taught at Camp X is questionable. The first H2H instructor at Camp X was an Olympic wrestler( Relekowsky), and examples of the syllabus Fairbairn taught have been available for years, in David Stafford's book on Camp X, as an example, or in the more recent How To Be A Spy book(Dennis Rigden)which has not just the H2H syllabus, but sections on camouflage, theatrics, guerilla tactics, etc.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Jonathan, I'm going to disagree with you,but only on a technicality. Defendu was the style that Fairbairn taught to the Shanghai police. It is preserved in his book Defendu(1926) and Scientific Self Defense(1931). Defendu covers a lot of control and restraint techniques that are not in the WWII syllabuses from Fairbairn and Applegate. These techniques were omitted due to impracticality for the task at hand, and time constraints in teaching.

Actually, I completely agree with you about Defendu - and I should have specified that I meant the core striking techniques and basic throws pulled from it to form WW2 Era Fairbairn Combatives.

 

[JanneM]

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!!!

How do you guys compare Scnadinavian Defendo/Defendo Alliance to the mix?

I train and teach in Scandinavian Defendo and what I know it has it's roots in Fairbarn system's manuals but does not have clear lineage to Fairbarn and they are pretty clear about it too.
System it self is very good and effective and I like it a lot.

Edit: Here are some links to the system

www.defendoalliance.com
www.defendo.fi
www.defendojkl.com
www.defendo.pl
www.defendo.hu

 

[arnisador]

I didn't even know there was a Scandinavian version!

 

[JanneM]

Scandinavian Defendo has been established in april 14th 2004. Before that the system was aclled VIP (very intensive program). Primus motor Jyrki Saario has been studying and teaching martial arts since 70's and is the one who brought Krav Maga to Finland and one of the first krav maga instructors in Europe.
If I remember right he decided to call his style Defendo because of the resemblance and the fact that developing his version of Defendo (VIP) he was mainly influenced by Fairbarn and studied the idea nad the method behind his teachings. So yes. we don't have straight line to Fairbarn but he has been the main influence in Scandinavian Defendo.

If anyone is interrested in Scandinavian Defendo we are organizing a seminar in San diego oct 13th at BJJ Unlimited.
http://www.defendojkl.com/san-diego-seminar/

 

[lklawson]

Scandinavian Defendo has been established in april 14th 2004. Before that the system was aclled VIP (very intensive program). Primus motor Jyrki Saario has been studying and teaching martial arts since 70's and is the one who brought Krav Maga to Finland and one of the first krav maga instructors in Europe.
If I remember right he decided to call his style Defendo because of the resemblance and the fact that developing his version of Defendo (VIP) he was mainly influenced by Fairbarn and studied the idea nad the method behind his teachings. So yes. we don't have straight line to Fairbarn but he has been the main influence in Scandinavian Defendo.

If anyone is interrested in Scandinavian Defendo we are organizing a seminar in San diego oct 13th at BJJ Unlimited.
http://www.defendojkl.com/san-diego-seminar/

It's just a name.

As long as you're clear about what you're teaching, what it's roots and history are, and don't try to imply it's something else, who cares?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JanneM]

It's just a name.

As long as you're clear about what you're teaching, what it's roots and history are, and don't try to imply it's something else, who cares?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My taughts excactly. =D

 

[CCT]

It's just a name.

As long as you're clear about what you're teaching, what it's roots and history are, and don't try to imply it's something else, who cares?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This is my apprehension of the historical path and roots:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Defendo was developed by Fairbairn in Shanghai from about 1920 and forward.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From 1907 to 1940 he developed, refined and tested a close quarters combat system that became informally known by some as The Shanghai method. At first it was called Defendu. He published his book ”Defendu” in 1926.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The book was re-printed as [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Scientific Self Defence[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in 1931.
T[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]he militarized version of Defendu is described in the military manual [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All in fighting 1942[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], used as a supplement during WW2 CQB-training. This book was later published in a civilian edition, missing the chapters on bayonet-fighting and rifle sighting, under the name [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Get Tough! How To Win In Hand-To-Hand Fighting. As Taught To The British Commandos And The U.S. Armed Forces[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. Fairbairn's CQC-system is also described in Rex Applegate's book [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Kill or Get Killed[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]His methods of self-defense and close quarters combat incorporated simple, but effective movements from Savate, Judo, Jutitsu, knife fighting and various Chinese martial arts. Also included were point shooting, police batons and other weapons and tactics. This method gave the Shanghai Police department a fast and reliable means of training their officers to combat local gangsters and violent criminals. The Shanghai method was used and documented in some 2000 real life encounters by the police, with approximately 700 encounters involving the use of lethal force. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The system was know to be very effective and also easy to learn[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fairbairn was called upon by the British to help train Allied troops in World War II. Fairbairn and others expanded on this system to create the Close Quarters Combat system that was then taught to the troops. This system was built on Defendu, but modified for military applications, rather than police and riot control.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fairbairn's 'special assignment' in Oshawa, Canada, was to teach his system to Allied special forces at the most highly classified training operation of WWII, Camp X. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Defendu continued to be taught after World War II and was adopted by many police agencies in the U.S. and Canada including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). Later self-defense fighting systems were developed such as the Israeli system of Krav Maga (contact combat). Krav Maga is mostly Fairbairn Fighting System since Imi Lichtenfeld Krav Maga Creator was trained in the Fairbairn Close Combat Fighting Methods when he served in the British Legions.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It was probably the time under the later part of WWII (1945 or later) the name Defendu changed to Defendo. Could be a mix up from Underwoods Combato who changed his Combato name to the more civilian adapted system called Defendo. It could also be that the men in Camp-X in daily words said Defendo because it is easier to say and pronounce. [/FONT]As Close Quarter Battle or Unarmed Combat training progressed throughout this period, it was added to and refined utilizing western fighting principals, eventually becoming referred to in slang as "DEFENDO" by Allied soldiers. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Who knows?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Anyway, the system proceeded to exist in police and military education in US and Canada. This is probably where Bill Wolfe entered the scene. The Canadians did a modernisation and rework of the Use of Force Traing which Bill W attended. He renamed the Policesystem it to Modern Defendo and started to market the ”new” system. He also held cources around the world. During these travel he met Jyrki Saario, a pioneer in the martial arts world. One of the first Krav Maga instructors in Europe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He developed the knowledge learned from Bill W with his own knowledge and experience to a revised system called Scandinavian Defendo. And his is where we are today. Modern Defendo is according to my knowledge now called Wolfescombatives.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Defendo is still alive and kicking in, not the least in Europe. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Bulgaria etc etc has active Defendoclubs. But of course you can fand Defendo education around the world.
It is a great system!
[/FONT]

 

[frank raud]

This is my apprehension of the historical path and roots:

Defendo was developed by Fairbairn in Shanghai from about 1920 and forward.

Defendu


From 1907 to 1940 he developed, refined and tested a close quarters combat system that became informally known by some as The Shanghai method. At first it was called Defendu. He published his book ”Defendu” in 1926.

The book was re-printed as Scientific Self Defence in 1931.
The militarized version of Defendu is described in the military manual All in fighting 1942, used as a supplement during WW2 CQB-training. This book was later published in a civilian edition, missing the chapters on bayonet-fighting and rifle sighting, under the name Get Tough! How To Win In Hand-To-Hand Fighting. As Taught To The British Commandos And The U.S. Armed Forces. Fairbairn's CQC-system is also described in Rex Applegate's book Kill or Get Killed.

Applegate's version of CQC is described in his book. There is a reason one of the common descriptions of WWII combatives is FAS(Fairbairn Applegate Sykes).



His methods of self-defense and close quarters combat incorporated simple, but effective movements from Savate, Judo, Jutitsu, knife fighting and various Chinese martial arts. Also included were point shooting, police batons and other weapons and tactics. This method gave the Shanghai Police department a fast and reliable means of training their officers to combat local gangsters and violent criminals. The Shanghai method was used and documented in some 2000 real life encounters by the police, with approximately 700 encounters involving the use of lethal force.
The system was know to be very effective and also easy to learn
Fairbairn was called upon by the British to help train Allied troops in World War II. Fairbairn and others expanded on this system to create the Close Quarters Combat system that was then taught to the troops. This system was built on Defendu, but modified for military applications, rather than police and riot control.

Defendu was not expanded, but condensed by removing the majority of restraint and control techniques. There are approximately 320 techniques shown in Defendu/Scientific Self Defense vs approximately 30 in Get Tough!/All in Fighting.
Fairbairn's 'special assignment' in Oshawa, Canada, was to teach his system to Allied special forces at the most highly classified training operation of WWII, Camp X.

Why was Camp X more highly classified than any of the other special training schools in North America, Europe, India or Asia?

Defendu continued to be taught after World War II and was adopted by many police agencies in the U.S. and Canada including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). Later self-defense fighting systems were developed such as the Israeli system of Krav Maga (contact combat). Krav Maga is mostly Fairbairn Fighting System since Imi Lichtenfeld Krav Maga Creator was trained in the Fairbairn Close Combat Fighting Methods when he served in the British Legions.

I'd be curious to see something that shows the RCMP teaching Defendu. Imi Lichtenfeld did not create Krav Maga.
It was probably the time under the later part of WWII (1945 or later) the name Defendu changed to Defendo. Could be a mix up from Underwoods Combato who changed his Combato name to the more civilian adapted system called Defendo. It could also be that the men in Camp-X in daily words said Defendo because it is easier to say and pronounce. As Close Quarter Battle or Unarmed Combat training progressed throughout this period, it was added to and refined utilizing western fighting principals, eventually becoming referred to in slang as "DEFENDO" by Allied soldiers.Who knows?

Going to leave the Underwood stuff alone for now. As Fairbairn stopped teaching or referring to his art as Defendu after leaving Shanghai, it is difficult to believe that, one, the name would be used at Camp X, two, that it would be difficult to pronounce for anyone who speaks either English or any Latin based language. Techniques were not added at this time. The curriculum was standardised.Anyway, the system proceeded to exist in police and military education in US and Canada. This is probably where Bill Wolfe entered the scene. The Canadians did a modernisation and rework of the Use of Force Traing which Bill W attended.
What Canadians and when did this modernization and rework of use of force training occur? In what capacity did Bill W. attend?

He renamed the Policesystem it to Modern Defendo and started to market the ”new” system. He also held cources around the world. During these travel he met Jyrki Saario, a pioneer in the martial arts world. One of the first Krav Maga instructors in Europe.
He developed the knowledge learned from Bill W with his own knowledge and experience to a revised system called Scandinavian Defendo. And his is where we are today. Modern Defendo is according to my knowledge now called Wolfescombatives.
Defendo is still alive and kicking in, not the least in Europe. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Bulgaria etc etc has active Defendoclubs. But of course you can fand Defendo education around the world.
It is a great system!

Welcome to the forums. Interesting first post.

 

[CCT]

Thanks for comments and remarks.
-Regarding different comments on words for example expnded/condensed it is a matter of interpretation. With expanded I should say it means more like differentied, even if it was condensed litterary speaking.
-I think maybe that Camp-X became more mythical due to rumours, masked faces etc. Of course there were other camps classified in the same way.
-It could be hard to find concrete evidence that shows the connection between RCMP and Defendu and maybe it should be interpreted as the system taught during WWII also was taught to RCMP. Either the system in full or parts of it. But in many places, internet, books forums etc one gets the impression that this was the case.
-Many speculations about Underwood -Defendo-Fairbairn-Defendu-did they ever meat has been made. Regarding the pronouncination maybe I should have written "slang" But I think is an interesting question. But is not unlikely that the name for differentreasons changed from Defendu to Defendo. I really don't know.
-Bills involvment in the education and the modernisation of the Canadian Use of Force Traing was read in Bills book Manual The start vol1. Regarding the truth in this I can't confirm.

 

[lklawson]

This is my apprehension of the historical path and roots:

Defendo was developed by Fairbairn in Shanghai from about 1920 and forward.

From 1907 to 1940 he developed, refined and tested a close quarters combat system that became informally known by some as The Shanghai method. At first it was called Defendu. He published his book ”Defendu” in 1926.

The book was re-printed as Scientific Self Defence in 1931.
The militarized version of Defendu is described in the military manual All in fighting 1942, used as a supplement during WW2 CQB-training. This book was later published in a civilian edition, missing the chapters on bayonet-fighting and rifle sighting, under the name Get Tough! How To Win In Hand-To-Hand Fighting. As Taught To The British Commandos And The U.S. Armed Forces. Fairbairn's CQC-system is also described in Rex Applegate's book Kill or Get Killed.
His methods of self-defense and close quarters combat incorporated simple, but effective movements from Savate, Judo, Jutitsu, knife fighting and various Chinese martial arts. Also included were point shooting, police batons and other weapons and tactics. This method gave the Shanghai Police department a fast and reliable means of training their officers to combat local gangsters and violent criminals. The Shanghai method was used and documented in some 2000 real life encounters by the police, with approximately 700 encounters involving the use of lethal force.
The system was know to be very effective and also easy to learn
Fairbairn was called upon by the British to help train Allied troops in World War II. Fairbairn and others expanded on this system to create the Close Quarters Combat system that was then taught to the troops. This system was built on Defendu, but modified for military applications, rather than police and riot control.
Fairbairn's 'special assignment' in Oshawa, Canada, was to teach his system to Allied special forces at the most highly classified training operation of WWII, Camp X.
Defendu continued to be taught after World War II and was adopted by many police agencies in the U.S. and Canada including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). Later self-defense fighting systems were developed such as the Israeli system of Krav Maga (contact combat). Krav Maga is mostly Fairbairn Fighting System since Imi Lichtenfeld Krav Maga Creator was trained in the Fairbairn Close Combat Fighting Methods when he served in the British Legions.

It was probably the time under the later part of WWII (1945 or later) the name Defendu changed to Defendo. Could be a mix up from Underwoods Combato who changed his Combato name to the more civilian adapted system called Defendo. It could also be that the men in Camp-X in daily words said Defendo because it is easier to say and pronounce. As Close Quarter Battle or Unarmed Combat training progressed throughout this period, it was added to and refined utilizing western fighting principals, eventually becoming referred to in slang as "DEFENDO" by Allied soldiers.Who knows?
Anyway, the system proceeded to exist in police and military education in US and Canada. This is probably where Bill Wolfe entered the scene. The Canadians did a modernisation and rework of the Use of Force Traing which Bill W attended. He renamed the Policesystem it to Modern Defendo and started to market the ”new” system. He also held cources around the world. During these travel he met Jyrki Saario, a pioneer in the martial arts world. One of the first Krav Maga instructors in Europe.
He developed the knowledge learned from Bill W with his own knowledge and experience to a revised system called Scandinavian Defendo. And his is where we are today. Modern Defendo is according to my knowledge now called Wolfescombatives.
Defendo is still alive and kicking in, not the least in Europe. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Bulgaria etc etc has active Defendoclubs. But of course you can fand Defendo education around the world.
It is a great system!

Holy necro-thread Batman!

Hi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[CCT]

Holy necro-thread Batman!

Hi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Necro or not, I still think it is interesting to try to establish, if possible, the history and path of the Defendo system. Even if it is not possible it is still a great system for self-defense. It seems to me the white spots are from about the fifties and forward. When did Defendo as a civilian self-defense system first pop up. And who started the movement? Furthermore, who created the Defendo logotype and when? Just some questions if anybody knows.....

 

[CCT]

Some links:

http://www.defendoalliance.com/



http://defendo.be/Defendo_Kristianstad/Valkommen.html


http://www.defendo.hu/fooldal


http://www.defendosweden.se/


http://www.defendonorway.com


http://defendo.pl/


http://t3sjalvskydd.se/t3sjalvskydd/system-stilar/scandinavian-defendo/


http://www.kamppailu-urheilukeskus.fi/


http://miyamaryu.se/tag/defendo/


http://www.defendoaustralia.com/


http://borasdefendo.com/


http://www.defendoturku.com/


http://www.defendo.com/videos/