Dan level credentials

[Mujician]

Hi - I'm new here, so I apologise if this has been talked about - yes I am aware of the search function before you mention it! Only, i want sure what terms to search under to find a result!
Anyway - After progressing through the various coloured belts, practitioners of almost every martial art would aim for 1st Dan, black belt. But what happens after this? Most gradings take place 'in club' with the instructor, or contemporaries of the instructor leading the proceedings. Does this mean that a student can only progress as far as the instructor? If the instructor has 2nd Dan, what method would he use to attain higher Dan grades? Is there a structure under which people can call on a professional body of people to externally examine people to higher dan grades?
I am in the UK, and the discipline I study is Karate. Many thanks

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi - I'm new here, so I apologise if this has been talked about - yes I am aware of the search function before you mention it! Only, i want sure what terms to search under to find a result!
Anyway - After progressing through the various coloured belts, practitioners of almost every martial art would aim for 1st Dan, black belt. But what happens after this? Most gradings take place 'in club' with the instructor, or contemporaries of the instructor leading the proceedings. Does this mean that a student can only progress as far as the instructor? If the instructor has 2nd Dan, what method would he use to attain higher Dan grades? Is there a structure under which people can call on a professional body of people to externally examine people to higher dan grades?
I am in the UK, and the discipline I study is Karate. Many thanks

This varies by style and organization. I'll give you some examples. Within mainline NGA (my primary training), any instructor can promote to the rank below him. If you want to rank up to 3rd dan and are training under a 3rd dan, you go to his instructor for grading. In some styles, there are panels of grandmasters (or equivalent) you can test with for higher rank. Mind you, at some point the rank in most styles becomes honorary rather than skill-based. In the NGAA, for instance, there are no testing requirements beyond 2nd dan - it's just for contribution to the art and ability to produce good instructors.

 

[kuniggety]

gpseymour hit the nail on the head. There really is no "standard" as different arts and organizations have adopted different methodologies. In BJJ, I've seen some say you can promote one below and others two below, once you've hit black belt. Ie depending on the tradition it takes either a one stripe or a two stripe black to give someone their black. Once you've got that black, the next 8 stripes are purely time in grade and staying involved in the art. In Aikikai aikido, you can promote to black once you've hit 4th degree at which point you've learned the full curriculum and can promote someone up to 3rd. I think it's similar in judo. The karate school I attended as a youth, the curriculum stopped around 3rd degree too. Like what gpseymour said, it's usually about dedication to the art and doing things such as competing or teaching to keep advancing up.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agree with the others. There are no standards. In general, traditionally, an instructor can only promote up to one belt below their own rank. It is not uncommon for instructors who wish to promote a student beyond that to take the student to their own instructor or in some cases, organization, for future promotions. This points out why it is important to some extent for a school and an instructor to have a base of support such as a honbu or other organization upon which to rely.

One notable exception is an instructor who has been given the title 'hanshi'. This title in traditional Okinawan karate can be given to any dan rank theoretically, although typically it is only given to very experienced and admired 9th and 10th dan instructors. A person who holds the title hanshi can promote anyone to any rank, including to a rank higher than their own. They can promote a ham sandwich if they want to. Hanshi can do as they please, they have earned the right.

 

[Mujician]

Okay - thanks for the replies. I've seen some people talking about others saying how on earth can they be such and such a dan. I've also seen an old sensei of mine who was 5th dan, he went to a big martial arts event with various people around where he was judged fit to be awarded 6th Dan. If I were to attain 4th Dan, and wanted to get further than my current sensei - to whom would I turn?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Okay - thanks for the replies. I've seen some people talking about others saying how on earth can they be such and such a dan. I've also seen an old sensei of mine who was 5th dan, he went to a big martial arts event with various people around where he was judged fit to be awarded 6th Dan. If I were to attain 4th Dan, and wanted to get further than my current sensei - to whom would I turn?

You would ask your sensei. Being promoted outside of your school and teacher would be very disrespectful.

If you have no instructor, you have difficult choices to make. One possibility would be to find an instructor. Another might be to join a respectable organization (use caution, there are many that will award advanced promotions as a business model, I presume you are not interested in pay-to-promote schemes).

There are those who simply self-promote themselves. I know some such. I cannot say I hold them in high regard.

I know a very accomplished instructor whose sensei passed away, leaving him in the middle of the dan ranks. His instructor left him behind several promotion certificates, and told him to put them on his wall at various dates, if he kept training and teaching. He has obeyed his instructor's wishes, most honorably. He is also now incapable of being promoted further without going under the auspices of an organization or another sensei, which he does not wish to do.

And what is the harm in that? He trains and teaches because that is what he does. Higher rank would not make him a better instructor or student at this point.

I would not ever look down upon this man even if someday I were to advance to a belt rank above his. He would always be senior to me, very senior, in my mind and opinion. I would always show him the utmost respect.

Those are your choices. What are your circumstances, if I may ask?

 

[Mujician]

My circumstances pertaining to black belt ranks is none existent. I'm a way of black belt, and its going to be a while before i get there. I'm just thinking out loud about the future. Progressing as far as I can get, in a recognised and respected manner, is what I want to do.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I know a very accomplished instructor whose sensei passed away, leaving him in the middle of the dan ranks. His instructor left him behind several promotion certificates, and told him to put them on his wall at various dates, if he kept training

I would not ever look down upon this man even if someday I were to advance to a belt rank above his. He would always be senior to me, very senior, in my mind and opinion. I would always show him the utmost respect.

Those are your choices. What are your circumstances, if I may ask?

Completely agree on that a higher doesn't make you better than someone. For example In my club there's a guy who's a third dan but has been training for over 50 years and isn't any higher because he did his own thing then took a break but everyone knows he should be higher and even the 4th dans look to him as more advanced

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay - thanks for the replies. I've seen some people talking about others saying how on earth can they be such and such a dan. I've also seen an old sensei of mine who was 5th dan, he went to a big martial arts event with various people around where he was judged fit to be awarded 6th Dan. If I were to attain 4th Dan, and wanted to get further than my current sensei - to whom would I turn?

Your sensei will know who is available to promote you beyond that point. Most organizations are more or less hierarchical, so it's usually not a good idea to go outside your instructor's line (since those above him know him, and will be best suited to make the judgment about your promotion).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My circumstances pertaining to black belt ranks is none existent. I'm a way of black belt, and its going to be a while before i get there. I'm just thinking out loud about the future. Progressing as far as I can get, in a recognised and respected manner, is what I want to do.

If you aren't even first dan yet, then don't worry about the rest. The answers to that question may change between then and now.

 

[Balrog]

Hi - I'm new here, so I apologise if this has been talked about - yes I am aware of the search function before you mention it! Only, i want sure what terms to search under to find a result!
Anyway - After progressing through the various coloured belts, practitioners of almost every martial art would aim for 1st Dan, black belt. But what happens after this? Most gradings take place 'in club' with the instructor, or contemporaries of the instructor leading the proceedings. Does this mean that a student can only progress as far as the instructor? If the instructor has 2nd Dan, what method would he use to attain higher Dan grades? Is there a structure under which people can call on a professional body of people to externally examine people to higher dan grades?
I am in the UK, and the discipline I study is Karate. Many thanks

In the ATA, one can test up to 3rd Degree in the school as long as there are at least two judges on the panel that are 5th Degree or higher. For 4th Degree and above, testings are at the Spring Nationals or Fall Nationals tournament, or at World Championships. Everyone tests for rank; there are no honorary promotions except when given posthumously to acknowledge the person's service to the organization.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Hi - I'm new here, so I apologise if this has been talked about - yes I am aware of the search function before you mention it! Only, i want sure what terms to search under to find a result!
Anyway - After progressing through the various coloured belts, practitioners of almost every martial art would aim for 1st Dan, black belt. But what happens after this? Most gradings take place 'in club' with the instructor, or contemporaries of the instructor leading the proceedings. Does this mean that a student can only progress as far as the instructor? If the instructor has 2nd Dan, what method would he use to attain higher Dan grades? Is there a structure under which people can call on a professional body of people to externally examine people to higher dan grades?
I am in the UK, and the discipline I study is Karate. Many thanks

It would depend on the academy but from what I know in some styles of Karate that after you make 5th Dan you no longer get promoted by your academy or training hall but rather by your peers and at that point further rank promotion is not a matter of skill in the art rather rank is earned through how much you put into the art, your teaching ability, your contributions to the art, ect. As I said it depends on the training hall and if the head instructor is only 2nd dan than that might be the furthest they will promote you but as it is lots of training halls do have instructors that are above 5th dan and some training halls where the head instructor is below 5th dan are parts of larger organizations. So you would have to visit an academy and ask how its done with them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

They can promote a ham sandwich if they want to.

Unfortunately ham sandwiches always go bad in the end.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In my organization we don't really have any of those issues. All of our Dans are promoted directly by the 8th Dan head of the school.

 

[Mujician]

In my organization we don't really have any of those issues. All of our Dans are promoted directly by the 8th Dan head of the school.

Where and from who did he earn his 8th Dan?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my organization we don't really have any of those issues. All of our Dans are promoted directly by the 8th Dan head of the school.

How does that work out, logistically? Is it a small organization, or are dan rank promotions just very sporadic?

 

[RTKDCMB]

How does that work out, logistically? Is it a small organization, or are dan rank promotions just very sporadic?

Master Rhee is one of the 12 original TKD masters and we are probably one of the largest single (not part of a larger organization like ITF for example) martial arts schools in the world. Higher Dan ranks (2nd Dan and above) are based more on contributions to the art than a physical grading test and don't happen that often. Although in recent years there has been a higher rate of promotion than in previous years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Master Rhee is one of the 12 original TKD masters and we are probably one of the largest single (not part of a larger organization like ITF for example) martial arts schools in the world. Higher Dan ranks (2nd Dan and above) are based more on contributions to the art than a physical grading test and don't happen that often. Although in recent years there has been a higher rate of promotion than in previous years.

Ah. Single school - I missed that in your original post, though that's clearly what it says.

 

[JR 137]

Coming from my CI, teachers in our organization may promote up to two dan ranks below themselves, and up to a certain dan grade (possibly up to 5th). Above that must be done by our founder. I assume international dojos have a little more wiggle room. He does travel to international dojos somewhat regularly for various events/milestones. I'm under the impression that he does dan testing while there. There are two 8th dans in Australia and New Zealand who I believe do advanced dan testing.

Our founder (Tadashi Nakamura) is 9th dan. He was promoted to that rank by a panel of people outside the organization. He's reportedly stated he will never accept a 10th dan. He has promoted only 4 people to 8th dan.

The only realistic ways I see someone passing their teacher's rank is if the teacher dies, stops training, or the teacher or student leaves the organization. In any of those instances, that person wouldn't be your teacher anymore anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only realistic ways I see someone passing their teacher's rank is if the teacher dies, stops training, or the teacher or student leaves the organization. In any of those instances, that person wouldn't be your teacher anymore anyway.

I can think of two situations where a student might exceed the rank of their instructor, and in one of them they remain a student.

First, in any association where ranks above a certain point aren't skill-based (based upon building instructors, service to the art, competition, etc.), a long-term student could gain rank higher than his instructor, while theoretically still taking instruction from them. For instance, if the organization awards higher ranks for building the art (growing instructors who open schools, etc.), then if an instructor trains a few people to instructor level and they open schools (which, let's say, earns him a 3rd dan ranking). Now one of those students continues training under that instructor, and starts growing instructors of his own, some of whom grow instructors of their own (which earns him a 4th degree, for having 2 levels of chief instructors under him).

In the second case, if the ranks are skill-based, a long-term student could bypass the skill and ability of his primary instructor. This could be simply because the instructor started later in life, and doesn't have they physical ability to train those highest level skills anymore.