Creativity is key?

[marques]

Most people want to start being creative long before they are ready, and long before they understand where it is appropriate and more importantly, where it is not.

Not much to add after this (the very first answer).

At some point, I started creating things and replacing one quite automatic solution for many dubious solutions. Bad idea. The project should be quite perfect before the construction. I was spending all the resources in weak buildings... no project.

But I also believe that everyone can run a few experiments (which also requires some skill). Not creating mistakes, but testing hypothesis (concepts, principles...).

 

[drop bear]

Most people want to start being creative long before they are ready, and long before they understand where it is appropriate and more importantly, where it is not.

Depends on the coach. A good coach will understand how to shape the system to fit the student. And so you have creativity.

With creativity you get evolution.

And with evolution you get a better style.

I don't know a top fighter that is a carbon copy of their instructor.

 

[Headhunter]

So I was bored one day and decided to do some research into some cool Bruce Lee video. What I ended up finding was Bruce Lee in an interview. He was discussing His thoughts on Martial arts and stated how people should be formless and value creativity and simplicity. So I want to ask, what are your thoughts about creativity when learning martial arts?

Yeah the thing with Bruce lee though with what I read is he rushed his students. If they didn't understand a move he wouldn't work on it more he'd rush them to the next move. He could pick up things very quick and expected his students to do the same when of course it doesn't work like that. He talked down on styles for having set movements but the thing Is set movements are very much important and once you've got those down /then/ you can start being more creative. Another thing with lee is he wanted his students to be good but that wasn't his overall goal he mainly used them to help himself develop his art and have himself a load of training partners. As a martial artist he was exceptional as a teacher....well I doubt I'd enjoy being taught by him if I'm honest from what I've heard. This isn't just from books or interviews either I've had some friends who worked with him and while they said he was great and they learnt a lot about actual philosophy and the theory of combat and fitness they didn't actually pick up the basics

 

[Midnight-shadow]

My instructor talked about this in class recently. He said that you first have to learn the rules before you can break them through experimentation and creativity. This applies to many forms of art not just MA. The example he gave was painting. He said you can see clearly the difference between an abstract painter who had learnt the rules and decided to break them, and someone who had decided to break the rules because they couldn't be bothered to learn them.

You get the same thing in music. As a professionally trained musician I can easily tell the difference between someone who has learnt the rules and chosen to break them, compared to the person who didn't learn the rules to begin with.

 

[hoshin1600]

Part of understanding Bruce would be to understand the time. the 60's to understand where he is coming from you have to factor in the context. remember the 60's was about expanding your mind ...man. i mean its groovy to kick and punch but it's all about the mind...man. oh yeah don't take the brown acid.

My understanding of what he is talking about, i compare to playing a musical instrument, which i dont do well. i can play a few songs on the guitar but then i listen to Eric Clapton and i just put the darn thing down. i am trapped in my inability to do what i want to play, my fingers just cant do it. i would love to experience that freedom of movement to just let my mind flow and have my fingers follow so the music comes and is free and i can create. i believe that is what he is talking about but with martial arts and the body. to be free in my movement to create movement in harmony with the opponent and not be limited. the style of your choice while it can teach you the basics also limits you to those conventions. the frog in the well has no idea the vastness of the ocean. if you follow a style you will be forever stuck in the confines of it. if you play the blues guitar and join a speed metal band you wont play speed metal you will be limited to a blues feel... just really fast. this is what i believe Bruce meant about "using no limitation as a limitation" when i work with other martial artists who are style centric they cannot imitate what i am doing nor at times can they understand the difference. as much as they try they are always stuck doing their style

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My instructor talked about this in class recently. He said that you first have to learn the rules before you can break them through experimentation and creativity. This applies to many forms of art not just MA. The example he gave was painting. He said you can see clearly the difference between an abstract painter who had learnt the rules and decided to break them, and someone who had decided to break the rules because they couldn't be bothered to learn them.

You get the same thing in music. As a professionally trained musician I can easily tell the difference between someone who has learnt the rules and chosen to break them, compared to the person who didn't learn the rules to begin with.

In many cases, the creativity isn't about breaking the rules, but learning to understand what they really are. When I've worked with brown and black belts who seemed stagnated, I often found they simply hadn't spent enough time asking questions of their own technique, like "What happens if my foot ends up here, instead?" They simply always stepped the way they were told was right, and never stepped "wrong" to find out why it wasn't as good. Once you know that, you start to be able to find what fits if you do go that way, removing some of the gaps in your ability.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

simply hadn't spent enough time asking questions of their own technique,

Funny thing regarding that (this is sort of on topic). I was training this past week and our instructor was quizzing the class on terminology (we have Cho Dan (Black belt) tests coming up). He is reading off of a list of names that was given to the class to study (Korean and English translations). Now this list was seen as "THE LIST" of every basic you needed to know. It was always right. We get through almost the entire basis portion of our class when he reads the last move. After attempting to do the move that he instructed when some of the higher students become confused when they were told what it was. I turned out that "THE LIST" had the wrong translations to it. We ended up performing the combination two different ways. Kind of made us all think about how we just replicated instead of actually thinking about what we were doing. We also learned a cool new combination because of it.

 

[JR 137]

In the system I study, we have numbered "self defenses" and yakusoku kumite. They're basically one steps and prearranged sparring. They're standardized and part of promotion tests. People see stuff like that in videos and criticize it. I'm sure Bruce Lee would too, and it would probably be a prime example of his "be formless" point.

It's all in the teaching and explanation of why they're done and taught. My CI doesn't teach them as "this is how a fight will go." Not even close. He approaches them as teaching basics - where on the wrist to block, how to block, how to move, targets, possibilities of how and when to hit some targets, distancing, and timing. He never says "do this in a fight." They're all basically drills.

Learn them, get good at them, make them become natural, then start getting creative. As has been said here - learn the rules, get good at using them, then learn how to break them appropriately. No one in our dojo thinks a fight will ever go as choreographed; but we're used to hitting certain targets with certain techniques and moving a certain way. You can easily tell who's been at it for a long time and who hasn't.

Since everyone else went with an art analogy, I'll go with a gymnastics analogy...

It's like a gymnastics floor routine; first you learn how to roll, cartwheel, somersault, etc. After those things, you learn which ones naturally flow into which. From there, you start putting together your own routine. Then you adjust your routine to your own strengths and weaknesses and the competition. If you don't have the basics of tumbling down, your routine is going to suck, regardless of how well put together it is on paper.

Get good at actually using the basics before you start to get creative.

 

[Devon]

Aikido founder Morihei Uyeshiba wrote and spoke of the principle or ideal of takemusu, which roughly translates as "martial-creative" - perfect, effortless spontaneity, a level at which techniques "create themselves" in response to whatever the opponent is doing, which is probably in the ballpark of what Bruce Lee was alluding to. Bartitsu founder E.W. Barton-Wright also described it, saying that "It is quite unnecessary to try and get your opponent in any particular position, as the system embraces every possible eventuality, and your defence and counter attack must be entirely based upon the tactics of your opponent."

My own approach to martial arts instruction was profoundly influenced by the modern dance discipline of contact improvisation, which includes literally no "techniques" of the kind that are taught in most dance styles. Instead, CI offers a range of challenge-based exercises and "games", for want of a better word, that collectively teach all the skills of the style. One advantage is that there's no cognitive dissonance gap between performing these exercises and the actual experience of dancing, unlike in many MAs wherein the difference between learning kata or similar pre-arranged, technique-based drills and actually fighting can be really jarring.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

In many cases, the creativity isn't about breaking the rules, but learning to understand what they really are. When I've worked with brown and black belts who seemed stagnated, I often found they simply hadn't spent enough time asking questions of their own technique, like "What happens if my foot ends up here, instead?" They simply always stepped the way they were told was right, and never stepped "wrong" to find out why it wasn't as good. Once you know that, you start to be able to find what fits if you do go that way, removing some of the gaps in your ability.

In my opinion, there is a difference between developing a greater understanding of the techniques, and being creative with them. The way I see it, there is a natural progression to learning and developing techniques that goes like this:

Learning fundamentals -> Developing greater understanding -> Being creative

We can see this clearly when looking at Jazz improvisation. All improvisation in music is done using the basic principles of chords and scales. You first have to learn all the different scales and basic chords that make up a piece of music. From there you increase your understanding of them by adding in more notes to the basic chords, before learning how to be creative with the chords and scales to create good improvisation. So in my opinion, developing a greater understanding of the basics is the stepping stone to using them creatively.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my opinion, there is a difference between developing a greater understanding of the techniques, and being creative with them. The way I see it, there is a natural progression to learning and developing techniques that goes like this:

Learning fundamentals -> Developing greater understanding -> Being creative

We can see this clearly when looking at Jazz improvisation. All improvisation in music is done using the basic principles of chords and scales. You first have to learn all the different scales and basic chords that make up a piece of music. From there you increase your understanding of them by adding in more notes to the basic chords, before learning how to be creative with the chords and scales to create good improvisation. So in my opinion, developing a greater understanding of the basics is the stepping stone to using them creatively.

To me, in martial arts, getting creative with variations (going beyond exactly what was taught) is an important part of learning. It's part of working from the concepts and principles, rather than precise techniques. I don't know of an analog in music (though there may be one) that can be started early. I could teach you one technique, get you to where you can do it consistently from a single position, then let you experiment and get creative around it. Pretty quickly, you'd figure out some things that don't seem to work, and some that do. This leads to better questions.

I wouldn't actually do this after just one technique, but I also don't think someone has to get all the basic scales and chords (which would be the basic core curriculum of an art) before they can start getting a little more creative. They won't be able to improvise with any flow yet, but they'll learn that flow faster (IMO) with some experimentation of their own fairly early in their training.

How well this will work probably depends upon the art, the training style used, and the student. It's certainly not a one-size-fits-all situation. For striking arts, I'm not sure there's an analogous area of exploration, unless we consider very controlled sparring to be such.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

To me, in martial arts, getting creative with variations (going beyond exactly what was taught) is an important part of learning. It's part of working from the concepts and principles, rather than precise techniques. I don't know of an analog in music (though there may be one) that can be started early. I could teach you one technique, get you to where you can do it consistently from a single position, then let you experiment and get creative around it. Pretty quickly, you'd figure out some things that don't seem to work, and some that do. This leads to better questions.

I wouldn't actually do this after just one technique, but I also don't think someone has to get all the basic scales and chords (which would be the basic core curriculum of an art) before they can start getting a little more creative. They won't be able to improvise with any flow yet, but they'll learn that flow faster (IMO) with some experimentation of their own fairly early in their training.

How well this will work probably depends upon the art, the training style used, and the student. It's certainly not a one-size-fits-all situation. For striking arts, I'm not sure there's an analogous area of exploration, unless we consider very controlled sparring to be such.

It should probably be said that there is a difference between experimenting while practicing (in an environment where you can take the time to think the options through), and experimenting "live" as it were. When I talk about music improvisation, I am talking about during a live performance, which is akin to improvising MA techniques during an actual fight. What you describe is experimenting during training where you can stop at any time and rethink what you are doing, which is similar to being creative while writing a song. You play around with different things and see what works and what doesn't. In my opinion, you can do the latter quite easily with only a basic knowledge of the techniques, but to be able to be creative during a "live" situation requires a deeper knowledge and understanding of the techniques.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

creative during a "live" situation requires a deeper knowledge and understanding of the techniques.

I agree with this. Creativity should be explored in a training scenario. In an actual fight, exploring while defending yourself might prove to be fatal.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with this. Creativity should be explored in a training scenario. In an actual fight, exploring while defending yourself might prove to be fatal.

Depends if you have trained your creativity.

You can't pre plan every circumstance. You will need to make stuff up on the fly in a street fight.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Depends if you have trained your creativity.

You can't pre plan every circumstance. You will need to make stuff up on the fly in a street fight.

Not gonna happen. What you bring to the fight, is what you bring to the fight.

 

[drop bear]

Not gonna happen. What you bring to the fight, is what you bring to the fight.

So if you get in a position in a street fight that you have not trained you are boned?

so you think there was training for this eventuality.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So if you get in a position in a street fight that you have not trained you are boned?

so you think there was training for this eventuality.

I am just saying you don't suddenly invent new karate moves. You fall back to what you know, and hopefully not what you think you know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am just saying you don't suddenly invent new karate moves. You fall back to what you know, and hopefully not what you think you know.

But you might use them from new angles and positions, or against an attack you've not dealt with before. Things happen on the street that you won't have planned for.

 

[Touch Of Death]

But you might use them from new angles and positions, or against an attack you've not dealt with before. Things happen on the street that you won't have planned for.

Not creativity...

 

[Hyoho]

So I was bored one day and decided to do some research into some cool Bruce Lee video. What I ended up finding was Bruce Lee in an interview. He was discussing His thoughts on Martial arts and stated how people should be formless and value creativity and simplicity. So I want to ask, what are your thoughts about creativity when learning martial arts?

Fine if you think you are Bruce Lee.