Controlling a weapon

[Rich Parsons]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

I would not grapple with an armed bad guy anymore than I would try to kick him.
:asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think ultimately, the best solution is to use whatever style you practice as a guide to what you do. Learn its strengths, weaknesses, and how to get around them. Practice until your response is automatic. The problem I have with MMA is that they try to cover all bases in an attempt to to try to ensure they have no weaknesses. Actually I have more problems with MMA than that, but I won't go into it. Their mentality is that by giving yourself many options, you will stand a greater chance in a real confrontation. However, studies have shown that when you have too many options, you literally become overwhelmed by choice. Personally, I favor limiting your options but making your response ingrained so that in the event of a situation, your body and mind know instinctively what they will do, and your actions will be automatic. Put another way, a dedicated aikido, judo, wing chun, grappling, or tae kwon do student who practices diligently can be victorious because their technique will be automatic.
And to answer Mr. Parson's question about the attacker pulling his technique and cuuting my leg or ankle, you must train yourself to watch eyes and be aware of your opponent's movements. If you do this it will easier for you to catch him trying to pull his technique and you will be more able to compensate if he does.

 

[8253]

either control the weapon or cripple the opponent, just a kick to the midsection is a joke, its just going to get you hit harder.

 

[MichiganTKD]

In our Dojang there used to hang a sign that read, in Korean, "One Time Offense". That meant you practiced your technique to develop enough speed, accuracy, timing, and penetrating force that there was no need for a second technique. Much like the karate "one strike, one kill" philosophy. When I say side kick to the ribs, I mean a side kick executed with so much speed, power, and force that it destroys your opponent. I don't believe in overwhelming your opponent with combinations, I believe in being able to do one technique so forcefully that, no matter you hit, he has no chance.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

with respect
i ask,
what if you miss?
:asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

Well, keep in mind, this is what we aim for. It doesn't always mean you will be successful. If you miss, I think there is a window of opportunity where you are allowed to recover and execute a second technique. However, that window gets smaller and smaller as more time elapses, and your opponent's potential for victory higher and higher. So if you miss, you must immediately follow through with another technique to keep him off balance, realizing that if you miss again, your chance for winning is getting smaller.

 

[Bod]

A good friend of mine (about 14 years old at the time) who had done judo for one school term shoulder threw a boy who attacked him with a lump of 2 by 2 wood. He was a bit shocked after it happened.

There is nothing wrong with wrestling a guy with a big stick if you know how to wrestle and he he is not an expert with the stick. A guy with a knife, expert or not, is another matter.

 

[MJS]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

Personally, I think you need to come back to reality and get off Fantasy Island!! Like Rich said...you try your fancy TKD kicks against someone with a weapon, and I can assure you that the first thing that'll get hit will be whatever it is that is coming.

In addition, closing the gap, would be a much better option than trying to throw a kick. Come on man!! Sure, they can still use the butt end of the stick, but you're not going to be taking a full swing as if you were standing back and trying to kick.

Like I said...I'm talking about real SD, not a movie with fancy TKD kicks!!! :boing2:

Mike

 

[MJS]

Additionally, our GM practiced TKD in Korea at a time when gang warfare was rampant. He had to use TKD often to defend against attackers, unarmed and armed. You can't tell me it doesn't work.

Obviously his attackers were not any good. Try that against someone really trying to attack you, and you'll see a big difference.

Mike

 

[MJS]

In our Dojang there used to hang a sign that read, in Korean, "One Time Offense". That meant you practiced your technique to develop enough speed, accuracy, timing, and penetrating force that there was no need for a second technique. Much like the karate "one strike, one kill" philosophy. When I say side kick to the ribs, I mean a side kick executed with so much speed, power, and force that it destroys your opponent. I don't believe in overwhelming your opponent with combinations, I believe in being able to do one technique so forcefully that, no matter you hit, he has no chance.

Yeah, ok. Again, come off Fantasy Island. You're really going to rely on that 1 kick to save you??? :boing2:

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well, keep in mind, this is what we aim for. It doesn't always mean you will be successful. If you miss, I think there is a window of opportunity where you are allowed to recover and execute a second technique. However, that window gets smaller and smaller as more time elapses, and your opponent's potential for victory higher and higher. So if you miss, you must immediately follow through with another technique to keep him off balance, realizing that if you miss again, your chance for winning is getting smaller.

That club is going to be just a little bit faster than your kick. If you miss???? Yeah, if you miss, you're gonna be screwed.

Mike

 

[MJS]

You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations?

Not if you're going to try and kick.

More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method?

Its better to clinch. You're not going to take the full power swing compared to try to kick.

Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?

Why in the world would I kick an armed assailant??? :idunno:

Mike

 

[MJS]

I think ultimately, the best solution is to use whatever style you practice as a guide to what you do. Learn its strengths, weaknesses, and how to get around them. Practice until your response is automatic. The problem I have with MMA is that they try to cover all bases in an attempt to to try to ensure they have no weaknesses. Actually I have more problems with MMA than that, but I won't go into it. Their mentality is that by giving yourself many options, you will stand a greater chance in a real confrontation.

So, let me get this straight. If you have too many options, you wont do good, but the fewer you have the better you'll do???? Ummm...If you're not familiar with a certain range of fighting, you wont have any options at all to choose from, and you'll be lost as to what to do!

However, studies have shown that when you have too many options, you literally become overwhelmed by choice.

And you got this info from????????? Maybe that is in your case, but I wouldnt say thats the case with everyone.

And to answer Mr. Parson's question about the attacker pulling his technique and cuuting my leg or ankle, you must train yourself to watch eyes and be aware of your opponent's movements. If you do this it will easier for you to catch him trying to pull his technique and you will be more able to compensate if he does.

And as soon as you throw that kick, THAT will be his target!!! Try sparring someone armed with a weapon, who is REALLY trying to hit you.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from. If the "Bestest" response to the club wielder is to run, I will. If it is to kick, I will..... If it is to kiss him full on the lips before he can recover from his hollywood style wind up before the strike to break his concentration and escape - I will..... well it would have to be pretty dire for that.

I think folks are confusing "bestest" with "what I know I can do because I have trained hard in it." I have taken TKD from guys who can make it work on the street. I have taken FMA/Kenpo and midrange arts that combine hand, stand up grappling and kicking arts who can make that work on the streets - because they train dilligently and are pros....

Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

In reality if it was only a matter of the 'bestest' art deal, a program that trained reality street defense skills other than just the hitting part would be good and it would have a force continuum repetoire that went from tactical/defensive firearms instruction all the way down to verbal judo and run away applications. I don't think 'bestest' is the only reason people train.

 

[MJS]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Actually, when I started this thread, I was hoping as well, that it didnt turn into that.

Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

Agreed! No matter what art, I certainly would hope that everything would be done with power.

There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from.

True. Thats one of the reasons I crosstrain, especially in the FMA. For one, I dont want to limit myself to certain options. I want a wide variety of things to choose from. Second, the FMA is the best art to take if you really want to address weapons. The stick and the knife have been a part, and still are a part of the Filipino culture. Who better to learn from, than from someone who always trains with those weapons?

Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

Good point!

I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

You're right. If you dont know what to do, then I guess you can only pray and hope. However, if I didnt know what to do, I'd do my best to learn what to do. Again, why limit yourself to only 1 option when there are so many to pick from.

Thanks for the reply.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Actually, when I started this thread, I was hoping as well, that it didnt turn into that.

Agreed! No matter what art, I certainly would hope that everything would be done with power.

True. Thats one of the reasons I crosstrain, especially in the FMA. For one, I dont want to limit myself to certain options. I want a wide variety of things to choose from. Second, the FMA is the best art to take if you really want to address weapons. The stick and the knife have been a part, and still are a part of the Filipino culture. Who better to learn from, than from someone who always trains with those weapons?

Good point!

You're right. If you dont know what to do, then I guess you can only pray and hope. However, if I didnt know what to do, I'd do my best to learn what to do. Again, why limit yourself to only 1 option when there are so many to pick from.

Thanks for the reply.

Mike

Kenpo/FMA's tend to be more inclusive than exclusive about finding what works. Either your exposure to the 'practical' model has affected your mentallity or you chose this model because of your mentallity. Either way, this approach is application focused whereas TKD and other more systematic arts are tradition focused. The benefit of the TKD type of training is that you learn to make something work because of determination and work ethic. It may take longer because you are forcing yourself into a technique/system, but it will work like clock... work (that was bad) when you do master it. Chicken or the egg type of mentallities.

 

[MJS]

Kenpo/FMA's tend to be more inclusive than exclusive about finding what works. Either your exposure to the 'practical' model has affected your mentallity or you chose this model because of your mentallity.

My exposure to the practical model came from my first BJJ instructor, who also had trained in a few different arts, a few of them being FMA. Through him, I was fortunate to find a few other instructors, who I attribute that thinking to.

Either way, this approach is application focused whereas TKD and other more systematic arts are tradition focused. The benefit of the TKD type of training is that you learn to make something work because of determination and work ethic. It may take longer because you are forcing yourself into a technique/system, but it will work like clock... work (that was bad) when you do master it. Chicken or the egg type of mentallities.

Another good point. The unfortunate thing is that many arts rely too heavily on that tradition aspect. Its almost like they are caught in the past, while thinking that the trad. methods that have worked back then, will still work today. Just like cars, medicine, and computers, they have all evolved and have become much better. Its a shame that those trad. arts dont seem as motivated to do so.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Haven't read the whole thread, or seen the article for that matter, but here are some ideas...

The attacker is the weapon, and whatever is in his hand is the tool. He is the one who can hurt me, not the tool by itself. So he is my biggest concern.

On that note, what is the focus of his attack? What is my greatest source of danger? If it is hitting me with a club or stabbing me with a knife, then unabling his ability to do so is my concern. How can this be achieved? I may need to control his weapon, but, if i pop him a few times, or pick something up and take him out with it, then his tool is no longer a concern of mine.

Coming from a FMA background, I know methods to control someones weapon. However, my concern is with the attacker, not the tool.

That being said, a 1-strike answer may work, but should not be relied on, as it may not take care of the problem, which is that attacker.

Just food for thought.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If this is going to go the way of 'bestest' art argument....I don't want to play.

Generally speaking, if you have devoted your years of training to TKD, every situation will be solved with a hard blocking, power kicking type of response. Is this because it is the 'bestest' way or is it because you have only learned to master your kicking/blocking techniques in this way and are confident because you can deliver this technique with good timing, power..... because of said training? Plug in any art and the question is still the same. Doesn't make any art better than any other, just different. How you pull it off is what makes you better, not the art.

There is no "bestest" artistic/technical response. There is only what you have in your tool box that you can pick from. If the "Bestest" response to the club wielder is to run, I will. If it is to kick, I will..... If it is to kiss him full on the lips before he can recover from his hollywood style wind up before the strike to break his concentration and escape - I will..... well it would have to be pretty dire for that.

I think folks are confusing "bestest" with "what I know I can do because I have trained hard in it." I have taken TKD from guys who can make it work on the street. I have taken FMA/Kenpo and midrange arts that combine hand, stand up grappling and kicking arts who can make that work on the streets - because they train dilligently and are pros....

Can't really argue "Bestest" because the situation is too vague, and TKD folks don't have the level of artistic sophistication with a weapon that an FMA'er would have and vice versa with the kicking stuff....

I guess my point is, checking or controlling the weapon is a good idea if you know how to do it. If you don't practice it, do what you know and pray for the best. Even if control/checking techniques are in your toolbox, they are generally taught as 'clearing the zone that the weapon will pass through motions' more than pinpoint 'grab/control the weapon' motions. So sometimes it is a control or check and sometimes the same motion becomes nothing at all and other times it turns into an in between strike.... I guess it just depends.

In reality if it was only a matter of the 'bestest' art deal, a program that trained reality street defense skills other than just the hitting part would be good and it would have a force continuum repetoire that went from tactical/defensive firearms instruction all the way down to verbal judo and run away applications. I don't think 'bestest' is the only reason people train.

Paul,

If you or anyone else took my words as saying the TKD would not work, or that FMA is the best ins all situations, then I will restate my words. TKD works. FMA works. It is up to the person not the art.

Now as to the Kicking. I know good full contact kickers from the 70's who were brave enough to quit their job and try to make a go at it. They were near the top of their game regionally. I would like to say that this would be a good representation of those who practice hard to kick and hit hard. One of them admits that he does not wish to ever kick (again) when the person has a weapon.

Why? The kicker has to cover distance and abort all the mass of the leg to stop the technique. The weapon, only has to move 6 to 18 inches to intercept and has a faster recover time. (* Assuming weapon does not weigh more than the average leg. *)

If I was to apply what I have seen of TKD. I would step in block hard before the person had a chance to complete thier swing. This reduces the amount of damage taken by stepping into the circle where the A is less for the calculation of F=MA or Force = Mass * Acceleration. The I would use some of the strong front punch and reverse punches to convince the person with the weapon that this was a bad idea. I would not try to swap kick for weapon strike. This is me, and also from my experince on the street and what I have seen.

I repeat, I did not say that TKD did not work. I know some guys who train hard hit hard, and can take it to the street. They agree though that they will be touched, and do not expect to come away unscathed.

:asian:

 

[rompida]

Also......... if you did not stop the weapon and instead sidestepped with a kick, wouldn't your leg become trapped against the attacker's body as the swinging arm followed through (unchecked) ???? Not to mention the fact that anyone who is a trained attacker is going to view that presented kicking leg as a possible target.

just my $.02