Confused about JKD

[Hurdoc]

First my background, I have no experience in martial arts however I have been researching extensively over the last month in my pursuit for one.
That said, JKD sounds interesting but I'm a little concerned about its "vagueness". In other words, its claim that its "formless" and takes a little from "whatever works". So if it specializes in nothing and encompasses all, what differentiates it from any mixed martial art and/or combat style like Systema, Krav Maga, Shoot Fighting, etc? I worry about a "jack of all trades, master of none" effect. Perhaps I have a traditional understanding of martial arts but it sounds frighteningly vague for a newbie like myself to start.
My second concern is that does it work? In other words, other martial arts have been "time-tested" in that they have lasted hundreds if not thousands of years. Plus they have been used in combat situations. I know that many of the techniques are no longer practially needed (unseating a mounted samurai ), but you understand what I mean.
I'm not criticizing to no end, this is a means to relieve my own doubts so I can choose the right MA for me! Thanks!

Just wanted to add, a lot of the principles in JKD seem similar to the "scientific" approach of American Kenpo, with a breakdown of the structure of moves and fluidity of motion. In fact, aren't they quite similar? Particularly since many American Kenpo teachers also instruct in Filipino stick/trapping arts? Again, the reason I ask is that I have American Kenpo available in my town as well

 

[Matt Stone]

All are One.

The Form of No Form and Technique of No Technique thing is highly misunderstood. It is simply a philosophical metaphor describing destruction of self-imposed limitations.

There is no such thing as punching without technique. Every time you hear Vunak say "I'll use this Muay Thai kick, and this Filipino trap" he is using technique. His No Technique is the fact that he draws on multiple sources rather than confining himself and his methods to one style alone...

If it were me, with the huge variance between JKD teachers, I'd go with the Kenpo...

But then, I'm a TMA a-hole, so what do I know?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Hurdoc]

Aye, that is my concern. That given the lack of a fixed curriculum (at least that is how it appears to my inexperienced mind), how do I discern "good" JKD? Although the school in my area http://www.jkdfamily.com/instructors.html appeasr to be a good one...

 

[Samurai]

As with any martial art......it is the TEACHER and not the style that makes all the difference in the world.

Go to the JKD school. Ask for a Free intro class.
Then go to the American Kenpo school and do the same.

THEN and ONLY THEN........make your choice.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[sweeper]

jkd is an od art just because it is relativly small yet it can be so political basicly because of a lack of leadership.. most teachers are diffrent.. the teachers that tend to have the most in common are the ones that have practiced togeather (obviously) apart from that they all seem to do everything diffrent.

As far as the vagueness goes, alot of it is because of the writings on JKD. Bruce lee never wrote out a book on JKD, all the books that have his name on the are compilations of his notes that were published after his death. And of course however faithfull the people editing the books have been, they are using a very limited medium (basicly making a literary collage).

And then there is also a diffrence between the conceptual understanding of jeet kune do and the body of techniques that you learn. Jeet Kune Do as a concept or idea is not a martial art, it sort of a way of looking at a martial art, but jeet kune do as a martial art is something else, something a little more direct, alot of people prefer to call that body of information (the physical stuff) Jun Fan Kickboxing/Kung Fu. Because that was what bruce lee called it before he called it jeet kune do/ The martial art is usualy what people start out doing, and usualy the conceptual stuff is added in latter on.

But of course the above description won't hold everywhere and even to my own understanding it isn't 100% correct (it's hard to put it all into words). So the best solution is just to visit the place and ask the instructor directly how he teaches and why they do things in the way they do.

 

[James Kovacich]

Hurdoc,

The answer given by sweeper was good. He need to experience first hand. There are good and bad instructors all around us.

Check them both out, but go to the JKD school first. The reasoning is the actual techniques that you will learn.

JKD varies from school to school and teacher to teacher. But there are many positive things that are in ALL JKD schools that you will not find in a Kenpo school.

Like no chambered punches. All strikes come from a natural position. Punching with your fist starting at the hip is not natural. There are reasons why the arts were taught that way. But JKD eliminates the unnecesary and only practices what is useful.

Please don't misunderstand "use what is useful and reject what is useless."

The many quotes that you hear "outsiders" quoting are for the most part misinterpeted. There is no way that they can fully understand them without themselves have "completed" through the process of JKD.

Take a look at this thread and my post, hope that helps.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7648
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Like no chambered punches. All strikes come from a natural position. Punching with your fist starting at the hip is not natural. There are reasons why the arts were taught that way. But JKD eliminates the unnecesary and only practices what is useful.

Kind of like "real" martial arts... I don't know of anyone that practices traditional martial arts that fights with their hands/fists on their hips, nor any that chamber/rechamber their punches all the way back to the hips everytime.

Strikes and kicks are stronger the farther they travel. The longer the distance, the more "oomph" they have on impact. That is why a good, strong lunging punch will be more potent than a jab. However, in the "heat of battle," strikes come from wherever the hand may be at that moment.

The belief that strikes must be fired from the hip everytime is characteristic of a) poor instruction (on the part of the teacher teaching this untruth) and b) lack of exposure to real traditional arts (for those who believe that traditional martial arts = horse riding stances and punching from the hip 100% of the time).

JKD has some interesting points, but before deciding on one art over another, be sure to check the hype in both camps before making the final decision... BMW dealers get paid to sell BMWs, not Hondas. So if you are shopping around and want to know the truth, ask someone that has no interest in either BMWs or Hondas.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Kind of like "real" martial arts... I don't know of anyone that practices traditional martial arts that fights with their hands/fists on their hips, nor any that chamber/rechamber their punches all the way back to the hips everytime.

Strikes and kicks are stronger the farther they travel. The longer the distance, the more "oomph" they have on impact. That is why a good, strong lunging punch will be more potent than a jab. However, in the "heat of battle," strikes come from wherever the hand may be at that moment.

The belief that strikes must be fired from the hip everytime is characteristic of a) poor instruction (on the part of the teacher teaching this untruth) and b) lack of exposure to real traditional arts (for those who believe that traditional martial arts = horse riding stances and punching from the hip 100% of the time).

JKD has some interesting points, but before deciding on one art over another, be sure to check the hype in both camps before making the final decision... BMW dealers get paid to sell BMWs, not Hondas. So if you are shopping around and want to know the truth, ask someone that has no interest in either BMWs or Hondas.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I agree and I am training in some traditional systems although I am not teaching them.

But the biggest factor when I mentioned the chambered punch as an example is that is the way the punches "will be practiced" in most schools. And we know that what we practice is what comes natural to us in a real situation.

I know like you that when I was young and fought, I did not punch from the hip. But I have seen the results firsthand of several people who never trained traditional, just pure Jun Fan and they are great fighters.

I agree with quite a bit of what you say but not the BMW analogy because in this particular situation its impossible to get the "correct" information about JKD from non-JKDer's. it then is opinion but does not carry enough weight to be acuate.:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

JKD and American Kenpo *SHOULD* lead to similar results. In reality they don't. I'm a 15-year Kenpo man who is slowly migrating towards JKD instead.

It shouldn't be a surprise: Ed Parker and Bruce Lee were friends. They saw eye to eye on many ideas. However, both of their arts saw absurd fragmentation and misinterpretation after they died.

If you read Parker's works, it sounds like Bruce's material: be formless, whatever works works, there is no truth except for experience, etc. etc. However, Kenpo is not trained (anywhere I've seen) in a way that creates this effect. Furthermore, in some place, JKD is not trained this way either.

For a good idea on how JKD training is supposed to lead to formless results, while being a set curriculum, check out the article by Roy Harris called "What is JKD?" It's excellent. He clearly explains his approach to JKD. His site is www.royharris.com.

Best,

~Chris

 

[jkdman]

JKD and Kenpo have the same basic concepts. As was pointed out Master parker and Bruce were friends and borrowed greatly from one another. They are two sides of the same coin. Point of fact lots of JKDmen and women take kenpo as well. My instructor Thomas C. Cruse once told me as I headed to kenpo class that JKD is the merely the hand that fits in the glove of other martial arts." I hope this cryptic answer is not truly as cryptic as it appears at first. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by jkdman
JKD and Kenpo have the same basic concepts. As was pointed out Master parker and Bruce were friends and borrowed greatly from one another. They are two sides of the same coin. Point of fact lots of JKDmen and women take kenpo as well. My instructor Thomas C. Cruse once told me as I headed to kenpo class that JKD is the merely the hand that fits in the glove of other martial arts." I hope this cryptic answer is not truly as cryptic as it appears at first. :asian:

This can only be true in theory as they relate to philosiphical aspects of the arts.

JKD has a base art which is totally differant than Kenpo, just because ALL JKD is so differant and MOST Kenpo is not that differant.

And because JKD's base system of Jun Fan is differant to start with and as the process of JKD evolves it becomes "its own" and I don't beleive that Kenpo ever reaches that point.
:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

akja-

I will agree with what you've said but make a tiny correction:

OJKD starts with Jun Fan. Not all JKD-C practitioners start with Jun Fan (many do, to be sure). But there are other JKD-C guys who don't start with a "base art" at all. (I'm thinking of, say, the Straight Blast Gym guys, for example).

I definitely agree that this makes for a broader range of starting points in the JKD community than the Kenpoka, who start with fairly similar beginnings.

And I COMPLETELY agree that "as the process of JKD evolves it becomes "its own" and I don't believe that Kenpo ever reaches that point."

But it certainly should.....

~TT

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
akja-

I will agree with what you've said but make a tiny correction:

OJKD starts with Jun Fan. Not all JKD-C practitioners start with Jun Fan (many do, to be sure). But there are other JKD-C guys who don't start with a "base art" at all. (I'm thinking of, say, the Straight Blast Gym guys, for example).

I definitely agree that this makes for a broader range of starting points in the JKD community than the Kenpoka, who start with fairly similar beginnings.

And I COMPLETELY agree that "as the process of JKD evolves it becomes "its own" and I don't believe that Kenpo ever reaches that point."

But it certainly should.....

~TT

See, you touched something else too.

I beleive that JKD should start with Jun Fan or else it's only relation to JKD is purely conceptual and thats why there are so many people that beleive there is "no art," just "concepts." I think at that point a name change may be appropriate.

There is so much to JKD that I don't do or for that matter beleive in, but thats what makes them all so differant.
:asian:

 

[sweeper]

well I think it depends on what someone wants to learn, if it's jun fan, JF/JKD or JKD.

Jun Fan being the base art, JF/JKD being a combination and JKD being the conceptual end.. If I recal bruce lee put an article in blackbelt about Jeet Kune Do, it's kinda hard to find it around (partly because blackbeltmag's archives are missing that issue) but it basicly said Jeet Kune Do is not a martial art at all.. In that article I saw nothing that would have made the study of jun fan nessisary to move into jeet kune do. Of course every students interpretation and understanding of what jeet kune do is, is diffrent. wich makes learning it rather hard.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
well I think it depends on what someone wants to learn, if it's jun fan, JF/JKD or JKD.

Jun Fan being the base art, JF/JKD being a combination and JKD being the conceptual end.. If I recal bruce lee put an article in blackbelt about Jeet Kune Do, it's kinda hard to find it around (partly because blackbeltmag's archives are missing that issue) but it basicly said Jeet Kune Do is not a martial art at all.. In that article I saw nothing that would have made the study of jun fan nessisary to move into jeet kune do. Of course every students interpretation and understanding of what jeet kune do is, is diffrent. wich makes learning it rather hard.

To achieve Jeet Kune Do there are differant roads leading to one destination. But even in the concept camp, like Dan Inosantos school, I'm sure the students will learn Jun Fan.

When it goes from instructor to instructor and goes through its "own evolution" of becoming what it will become with each instructor, it becomes differant.

Then why even call it just Jeet Kune Do anymore? It deserves a new name.

JF/JKD is a new name made up in the '90's and it was all political.

Jun Fan Gung-Fu and Jeet Kune Do are 2 phases of the "whole," one without the other is not complete.

If its all "conceptual" then the name should be slightly changed to something like Tom Smiths Jeet Kune Do. Many already do this but some don't and they should, I'm sure Bruce would of even "encouraged" them to.

Because he taught them that "his" Jeet Kune Do was not "their Jeet Kune Do."
:asian:

 

[jkdman]

If its all "conceptual" then the name should be slightly changed to something like Tom Smiths Jeet Kune Do. Many already do this but some don't and they should, I'm sure Bruce would of even "encouraged" them to.

You seem so caught up in keeping JKD a certain way. Bruce himself says that is stupid JKD is supposed to free people from such bickering. It is just a buch of concepts. Bruce had a pure JKD school and shut it down because people got caught up in the name JKD. Bruce addresses this in the very last page of Tao of Jeet Kune Do. "Jeet Kune Do is not to hurt, but is one of the avenues through which life opens its secrets to us. We can see others only when we can see through ourseleves and Jeet Kune Do is a step toward knowing oneself. Self-Knowledge is the basis of Jeet Kune Do because it is effective, not only for the individual's martial art but also for his life as a human being. Learning Jeet Kune Do is not a matter of stylized pattern, but is discovering the cause of ignorance. If people says Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please do not fuss over it. I am saying Jun Fan can not be studied, but what I find strange is this: If Jun Fan a style a martial art is taught as bruce made it and is so important. Than why does Bruce say JKD is not martial. He says it is not to hurt people, ergo not martial in intent. He aslo says that JKD is not stylized, so why must one study a particular style in order to do Jeet Kune Do? These are the questions that puzzle and perplex me. I would like to point out that the basis for what I said was direct from Bruce the organizer of the concepts called Jeet Kune Do. He said in an interview that if you intercepts a punch than it was JKD. However, If one intercepts a kick than it was Jeet Tek Do. The emphasis was on interception. Even Bruce was loose with the name. Why cannot the people who believe and apply these same concepts be the same. JKD is unique to each person. We each understand the base concepts differntly so all we can do as teachers is as Bruce said in Tao of Gung Fu: a good teachers merely points a person down his own path and guides the journey. A teacher doesn't make clones or say you must dio that or this. I am paraphrasing because I do not have the book in front of me. Still the point is the same. My Friend and teacher Thomas Cruse says on his tapes and when you train with him in person: "I am not going to show anything you may not have already seen somewhere else. I am not going to show a brand new drill or way of hitting. What I am going to do is show you my slant on it."

Just some thoughts,

Jkdman

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
And I COMPLETELY agree that "as the process of JKD evolves it becomes "its own" and I don't believe that Kenpo ever reaches that point."

The goal of both American Kenpo and JKD is to simply " float in totality. " Sure, we can water down Kenpo to make it simpler, however we'd be cutting off that which makes our advanced students the well-rounded fighters that they are. I would think that someone with 15 years in the art would recognize this.

The American Kenpo student, given the knowledge and capacity to evolve in his/her methods of application, will eventually and inevitably reach a point of self-expression. Don't assume that because people do the same technique ( or variations there of ), they have no self-expression in their art.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by jkdman
You seem so caught up in keeping JKD a certain way. Bruce himself says that is stupid JKD is supposed to free people from such bickering. It is just a buch of concepts. Bruce had a pure JKD school and shut it down because people got caught up in the name JKD. Bruce addresses this in the very last page of Tao of Jeet Kune Do. "Jeet Kune Do is not to hurt, but is one of the avenues through which life opens its secrets to us. We can see others only when we can see through ourseleves and Jeet Kune Do is a step toward knowing oneself. Self-Knowledge is the basis of Jeet Kune Do because it is effective, not only for the individual's martial art but also for his life as a human being. Learning Jeet Kune Do is not a matter of stylized pattern, but is discovering the cause of ignorance. If people says Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please do not fuss over it. I am saying Jun Fan can not be studied, but what I find strange is this: If Jun Fan a style a martial art is taught as bruce made it and is so important. Than why does Bruce say JKD is not martial. He says it is not to hurt people, ergo not martial in intent. He aslo says that JKD is not stylized, so why must one study a particular style in order to do Jeet Kune Do? These are the questions that puzzle and perplex me. I would like to point out that the basis for what I said was direct from Bruce the organizer of the concepts called Jeet Kune Do. He said in an interview that if you intercepts a punch than it was JKD. However, If one intercepts a kick than it was Jeet Tek Do. The emphasis was on interception. Even Bruce was loose with the name. Why cannot the people who believe and apply these same concepts be the same. JKD is unique to each person. We each understand the base concepts differntly so all we can do as teachers is as Bruce said in Tao of Gung Fu: a good teachers merely points a person down his own path and guides the journey. A teacher doesn't make clones or say you must dio that or this. I am paraphrasing because I do not have the book in front of me. Still the point is the same. My Friend and teacher Thomas Cruse says on his tapes and when you train with him in person: "I am not going to show anything you may not have already seen somewhere else. I am not going to show a brand new drill or way of hitting. What I am going to do is show you my slant on it."

Just some thoughts,

Jkdman

I'll start off by saying that I am a product of the way I was trained, by a man of men, a true master to the word who refuses to use the words Jeet Kune Do.
http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

I'm not caught up at all on keeping JKD anyway. I refer to the way I beleive the process of JKD "should begin" and where it ends and everything in between is up to the individual JKD instructors and fighters.

I've had long talks with a lot of people and after talking about the way I was trained, I've been told that I am one of the fortunate few. They don't see to many people teach the way the maciases do. JKD is about the individual fighter but when Sigung comes over and tells you Bruce would show you this way, I kneww I was getting something that others weren't.

My personal JKD is hardly like my Sifus. Nothing wrong with that. With my students, they learn JKD but they don't. I teach them Kempo Jujitsu which is my own flavor. They will learn all the technique plus my additions and subtractions. They may achieve JKD and they may not. If they do, they will promote in JKD. But no one pays for a JKD class. If they "achieve it", they graduate and then again they could be 4th Dan and not achieve JKD.

:asian:

 

[jkdman]

You miss my point and proved my point all at the same time. Bruce said that JKD is a concept. Not a name. I understand that you have a great sifu and that is wonderful. I have quite a few high ranking and well established martial artist. I do not throw their names around because that is bragging. Answer me this, how can one be a master of an idea. You say that you say he is a master of the art, Bruce said JKD was not a style but a way of looking at yourself. Bruce hated when people called it an art. If people fuss over the name can be replaced with if people brag over the name. If you cannot master looking at yourself for who you are then that is sad indeed and if you can you would never call yourself a master or allow people to brag on you because you would see how futile that would be. I was not meaning to upset you. Just to merely say that JKD does not start with anything other than a few base concepts and an open mind/heart. It needs not a base style because it has no style. If it needed a style why not Kenpo it is very similiar to the concepts we learn already. You could use any art to jump into JKD or no art the choice is yours because it is a way of looking at things. My point was solely that the concepts we learn are just that concepts, that may be learned by anyone with any level of martial arts experience. Even if that level is 0 and those people still deserve the same certificate or right to teach that anyone else has. You do not need a specific class prior to learning an idea or a concept.

Sorry I upset you

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by jkdman
You miss my point and proved my point all at the same time. Bruce said that JKD is a concept. Not a name. I understand that you have a great sifu and that is wonderful. I have quite a few high ranking and well established martial artist. I do not throw their names around because that is bragging. Answer me this, how can one be a master of an art when Bruce said JKD was not a style but a way of looking at yourself. If you cannot master looking at yourself for who you are then that is sad indeed and if you can you would never call yourself a master or allow people to brag on you because you would see how futile that would be. I was not meaning to upset you. Just to merely say that JKD does not start with anything other than a few base concepts and an open mind/heart. It needs not a base style because it has no style. If it needed a style why not Kenpo it is very similiar to the concepts we learn already. You could use any art to jump into JKD or no art the choice is yours because it is a way of looking at things.

Sorry I upset you

I was just expressing how I've changed since learning from my Sifu and "my beliefs" that "I've" developed. I teach Jun Fan first and work on a lot of ground work. Thats my way. I understand the "destination" and I "choose " to use what I deem useful.

You know the sensitivity goes well with ground grappling too. We use Thai and western boxing but my core is where my heart is in Jun Fan and Jujitsu.

You it is funny because in a way you proved your own point by saying what JKD is. "We" both know Bruce said a lot of things in his life and much of it will contradict itself. So it is natural to assume that what he said and what he emphasized just before his death "is going be be right."

I'm a product of the way ""I was trained, so my way will be mine in the respect of original or concept. JKD is what you make it but the "differances" come from how we get there.

I know many JKD people and JKD is always going to be differant. Good or bad? Dosen't matter. My journey is mine.:asian: