Combat Tai Chi.

[arnisador]

What is the most self-defense oriented of the major systems of Tai Chi? Which subsystems in particular are especially combat oriented?

 

[disciple]

As far as I know, all tai chi styles were created for combat. Unfortunately, a lot of schools today teach tai chi with emphasis on its appearance rather than application in combat fighting. Some tai chi styles are different in terms of "hard" and "soft" energy. As far as I know about yang and chen style, yang style uses soft energy throughout the forms, while chen style uses a lot "explosive energy/hard" combined with soft energy in its forms.

salute
:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I believe the Chen style is the most combat-oriented, with the Yang being a 'streamlined' version. I may however have the names reversed as its been a while since I looked up which did what. Those in the know, please feel free to correct me.

:asian:

 

[Dronak]

As far as I know, both of the previous posts are correct. All forms of tai chi were originally designed for combat and can be used that way assuming you learn how to from someone who knows. Most places seem to stress the health/exercise aspects of tai chi and ignore the combat aspects. The Chen style does have hard/explosive moves mixed in with the generally soft forms. I think it was the first style of tai chi to be created and it's closer to other hard style martial arts than the other tai chi styles. The Yang style is all soft with total relaxation one of the main goals. I'm not really familiar with the other main styles of tai chi to say how hard/soft they are. Of course, still being a beginner, I could be wrong, but I think the Chen style is the one with the most obvious martial applications.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If I remember my research correctly (its been a while) Yang and Chen are the 2 roots that all others flow from.

ok...did some digging, im gonna summarize a bit...

Originators
Chang San Feng (12th-15th centurys) believed to be originator.
Wang Tsung Yueh (18th century)

Styles:

Chen Style:
Wang Tsung Yueh taught Chiang Fa, who taught Chen Family.
Or
Chen Wang Ting developed it in 17th century

Yang Style :
Developed by Yang Lu Chan. Based on own system, plus teachings of Chen family.

Wu Style:
Developed by Wu Chien Chuan (1870-1942)


I can't find the notes outlining which was more combat based, but I do remember looking for a Yang school...

 

[Chiduce]

My understanding is that no matter what style or subsystem of tai chi is effective for combat without the movement's expression of fa jin. I know for a fact that this is true for using Qi Gong for combat fighting. There are specific fighting jin patterns for each martial art's (gong fu) style. I practice the white crane qi gong fighting jin patterns! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[disciple]

Although chen style tai chi seems more obvious for combat than yang style, but if look closely you can see that most of the movements in yang style are circle oriented. So I think, yang style relies more on the enemy's energy to throw it back at them with the circular movements. On the other hand, although chen style has some cicular movement, but a lot of the movements are explosive movements using fists, wrists, shoulders, etc.
Anyway, I heard that Mark Cheng's (If I am not mistaken) videos about yang style tai chi for combat application were good. Does anyone know?

salute
:asian:

 

[Garyr]

All Taijiquan (grand ultimate FIST) is combat oriented!! (or should be), the healing aspects are diminished terribly without the combat aspects, the yin without the yang....etc...
To quote Dronak:
"The Chen style does have hard/explosive moves mixed in with the generally soft forms. I think it was the first style of tai chi to be created and it's closer to other hard style martial arts than the other tai chi styles. The Yang style is all soft with total relaxation one of the main goals."

Accually the Yang lu' chaun form as I was taught DOES have explosive moves mixed into it! In fact, I have gained more martial capability from Taiji than any Chen stylist i have met. Im not a huge chen fanatic, but I believe there goal is to be relaxed as well!!
Regards,
Gary

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Garyr

In fact, I have gained more martial capability from Taiji than any Chen stylist i have met. Im not a huge chen fanatic, but I believe there goal is to be relaxed as well!!

Interesting! I studied the simplified Yang style and it was all done slowly. How do you practice self-defense? Forms and push hands only or do you do any other type of exercises?

 

[Dronak]

Originally posted by Garyr

Accually the Yang lu' chaun form as I was taught DOES have explosive moves mixed into it! Im not a huge chen fanatic, but I believe there goal is to be relaxed as well!

My knowledge is kind of limited at the moment, but I thought the Yang Lu Chaun form was an older one that wasn't as popular as, umm, the form developed by Yang Cheng-Fu (I think that's right). Since you learned the form, you would obviously know what's in it so if you say it has explosive movements, too, I'll take your word for it. As far as I know, the form of Yang tai chi that I'm learning is all soft and relaxed with no hard/explosive movements in it. It's probably not the Yang Lu Chaun form then. I don't think our instructor specified a specific person in the lineage that our form traces back to. As far as the Chen style goes, I really don't know much about it. You're probably right that there is also a goal of relaxation. The thing is with the explosive movements included, you can't be *all* soft and relaxed. The Yang form, at least the way I'm learning it right now, is totally relaxed because there are no hard movements in it. I didn't mean to imply Chen style doesn't want you to relax, more that it's different from the Yang style I'm currently familiar with.

 

[Garyr]

RE: arnisador
We do many things for self-defense, some are two man drills, such as san-sou, wudang hand weapons, fa-jing chuans, dim-maks 12 deadly katas,da-lu, single, and double push hands, and countless reationary drills based on applications from the form, for ex: we have one drill for Wave hands like clouds that includes two attackers.
You would be correct Dronak, we refer to the form we do as the "Old Yang" form. You can download the book from my instructors website, www.taichiworld.com .
Explosive movements are necessary as sort of a realease, you can stay relaxed and explode, you must have "sung" the power is rooted in the feet, directed by the waist, and emenates through the fingers.
kind regards,
Gary

 

[disciple]

Garyr, so you mean the traditional yang style long form does have explosive movements? I was never taught that, but then again I am only a beginner.
I believe the 48 form which blend the 5 major styles of tai chi does have some explosive movements.

salute

:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Unfortunately most of the Tai Chi schools I have seen in Canada are Taoist Tai Chi. The students and even worse the instructors do not even realize the martia nature of the art. They believe it is only a form of exercise.

 

[Dronak]

Garyr, I've seen that e-book or series of e-books before and I've probably downloaded it/them to my computer at home. I have skimmed over it, but there was just too much in there for me to really start trying to figure it out. Perhaps after I'm done learning the form our teacher is doing with us now, I'll have enough knowledge to get something out of looking at the Yang Lu Chaun form.

disciple, I'm pretty sure you're correct about the 48 posture combined form. Since it includes moves from other styles, e.g. Chen which is noted for having explosive movements, it would have some hard movements in it. I don't think there are a lot of hard moves, but there should be a few, maybe half a dozen or so? Something like that I think.

Rob_Broad, I know what you mean about the schools. This is one of the things I was concerned with when I was looking around for classes being given in my area. I heard too much about how most schools don't know or at least don't teach tai chi with/from the martial arts standpoint. I was afraid that where ever I went it would be treated as simply a health exercise and I knew it was more than that. That's why I'm glad to be learning it from our teacher who started us off with long fist. He has shown us some fighting applications of tai chi moves to help us understand them, so he clearly knows about the martial arts aspect of it. I'm glad that I'm learning it now and from someone who knows the martial aspects of it.

 

[disciple]

Kaith!
Maybe after reading this thread, you should reconsider the summary for tai chi forum on the first page

salute

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

LOL
I stole most of my summaries from descriptions I found. Maybe you guys who know TaiChi can write us a better one?

Seriously. Someone start a thread, and see if you can distill a brief description, say 20-30 words, and when ya have it ready, I'll put it up.

Do a longer version, and I'll set it up as the intro description to this forum. (with credit given of course)

:asian:

 

[liangzhicheng]

As many of you have stated before...all Tai Chi should be combat-ready. IMO part of the problem lies in the fact that many people do not want to approach Tai Chi in a combative manner. For instance, my Sifu definitely teaches the combat side...but only to those who want it. Slowly, those people who don't want the combat are starting to become more martial, however. You can't truly grasp Tai Chi without studying combat. It's yin and yang. Avoid combat when possible, but also have the capability to fight.

As far as Wu style goes, the form is performed smoothly, no explosive movements. However, to judge solely on the form is a mistake. We also do various power generation exercises, as well as various pushing hands. Working my way towards free stlye...