Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

[Xue Sheng]

There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..

That is only because I didn't see it

 

[Drac]

That is only because I didn't see it

I will look through some back issues and if I can find it I will post it..

 

[goingd]

In response to post a few pages back, please note that I did not say GM Peligrini demonizes traditional Hapkido, but that Combat Hapkido seems, to me, to do so.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In response to post a few pages back, please note that I did not say GM Peligrini demonizes traditional Hapkido, but that Combat Hapkido seems, to me, to do so.

How? A system cannot demonize anything. That requires a human agent.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The original post was about his rank.

He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.

I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - the original topic.

Fair enough. For discussion of the system, I have started a fresh thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066

Daniel

 

[goingd]

How? A system cannot demonize anything. That requires a human agent.

Daniel

A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.

 

[J Ellis]

A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind.

How exactly? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of a way, but I may be overlooking the obvious.

Joel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.

Not a big deal, but I disagree.

For the benefit of not having to go back several pages:

My problem is not with GM P. system or its substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize Traditional Hapkido.

To say that the system demonizes traditional hapkido but GMP does not is splitting hairs; so far as I know, he is the author of all materials and the only one doing interviews to promote the system.

Combat hapkido cannot present anything. It is a system. So if GMP is not presenting the rhetoric, then his organization is. If that is the case, then you have a human agency; simply not GMP.

Though I will agree that I have not seen GMP demonize traditional hapkido.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

A non-human entity absolutely has the power to present a rhetoric of any kind. Regardless, I still never pointed out Pelligrini as the one demonizing.

Rhetoric is simply the art of speaking or writing to communicate effectively. Neither is possible unless you are a person.

A martial arts system is a collection of principles and techniques involving bodily movement. On its own, it cannot do anything, including expressing negative opinions about another martial arts system.

 

[yorkshirelad]

It seems that Gm Pelligrini is both a competant teacher, likeable, professional and a good business man. I also like the fact that he doesn't claim to be all things to all people. He has sought out people who have specific martial arts knowledge and delgated facets of CHKD to them. I like this, it's admirable.

I have never trained with Pelligrini and I've never practiced CHKD, but I know people who have and they were impressed. I had a Drill sergeant in OSUT last Febuary who is a seasoned veteran and swore by what was taught in CHKD. In the same instance, I know of other quality individuals who swear by THKD. That's just the thing, if you like CHKD and your instructor, then do it. If you don't, then go somewhere else. It really is that simple.

We have people hear pointing out his rank and claiming it dubious, but please tell me where Ji Han Jae, Kwang Sik Myung, In Hyuk Suh, In Sun Seo or Joo bang Lee got their respective rank? In fact, I find it a little odd that Choi lost his menkyo in Yawara on a train and that there is no record of him ever studying Daito Ryu. He was obviously good at what he did and charismatic so people studied with him. Sounds a little like Pelligrini to me, but Pelligrini has the paper Choi didn't)

It seems that certain (not all) traditionalists exhibit a kind of snobbery towards CHKD, like it's their little brother art and therefore not worthy. Noone (as far as I know) has held a gun to anyone's head and made them train in CHKD. So why not let's just accept that we each have our own way of training. I loved my time in Sin Moo, but I was never adept at the kicking techniques and found most of them pointless. Do Ju Nim told me at a seminar in Germany in '99 that the kicks massage the organs and therefore the kicks are not meant necessarily for combat but for health purposes. I was also told that in the Sin Moo guidelines I shouldn't have sex anymore than (I think it was) once a week and that I should stay away from eating chicken because it negatively effected the lungs. I also found that the Dan Jun breathing did little for me and sometimes I felt rather silly doing it. I met people however who loved all aspects of Sin Moo and swear by it and more power to them.

I feel that something like CHKD is an improvement to THKD when it comes to defense. I believe that low line kicking makes the practitioner more stable and less vunerable. I also believe that dispensing with the meditation, Dan Jun breathing and the 25 basic kicks and special kicks lends more time to hand techniques and I believe that hand techniques are the more defense oriented aspects of Hapkido. I have only seen CHKD in videos on youtube, so I'm no means an authority.

To conclude, I would say that if you want a system that caters almost entirely to self defense, then coose CHKD. If, however you want a system that is more geared toward a health life with a dash of spirituality, then go for THKD. Again, it's horses for courses!

 

[goingd]

Remember, I also did not say that Pelligrini was not presenting that rhetoric. Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us. In this way a human entity is not necessary in order to present rhetoric.

I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.

I understand that everyone is not going to perceive this the way I do, but that is how I feel. I can respect GM Pelligrini for helping to promote martial arts and self defense to many people. I believe there is value in the technical aspects of his system, and I hope truly that it will completely benefit whoever learns it.

 

[dancingalone]

Remember, I also did not say that Pelligrini was not presenting that rhetoric. Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us. In this way a human entity is not necessary in order to present rhetoric.

Honestly, that's a bunch of hoo-ey. Using that definition, one could conclude that clouds are converting me to Christianity because I happened to have seen a cross-like shape in them.

Any 'rhetoric' an inanimate or unsubstantial thing may pose is only strictly from the impressions a person chooses to read out of them.

I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.

If he said that, it would indeed make sense if you had an objection to what Pelligrini the person said. It would hardly be logical to have the same feelings towards Combat Hapkido, the system, which is really only a collection of techniques and fighting principles. Otherwise, to be consistent you should take the same offense at boxing or other systems that don't have forms or dan jun breathing or kicks.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can respect a point of view that sees little or no benefit in forms, dan jun, meditation, high kicks, et cetera. My perception, however, is that Combat Hapkido does not simply state that these things are unnecessary - it, to me, propagates that they are meaningless. While I do not expect everyone to agree with me, I personally see a great deal of self-defense value in forms, dan jun, meditation and high kicks. I do not remember where I saw it, but I read a statement by Pelligrini once that essentially seemed to describe all forms and high kicks as mere, valueless flash, at least per my perception. That is where I am bothered, where I take some offense.

The humorous thing here is that hapkido, as a general rule, does not have forms, at least not in the sense that taekwondo, Shotokan, or Tangsudo have them, so the idea that he finds little value in them should make little difference to the vast majority of hapkidoists.

The question of high kicks is an MA issue, not a traditional vs. reality based. Plenty of traditional systems, some of them hapkido, do not promote much in the way of high kicks. Others, some of which are hapkido, most not, do promote them.

Many people view them as 'arty' and feel that their value in SD is questionable, but certainly would not say that they are completely without value either. Personally, I view them as high risk/low return moves for a whole host of technical reasons that have nothing to do with traditional hapkido.

If GMP or the tenets of his system mitigate against flashy high kicks, that is not demonization of traditional hapkido but a difference in philosophy, training methodology, and choice of tactics.

As far as danjun goes, at a minimum it is breath control, something which is (or should be) taught in every martial art in some fashion or another. CHKD may not use the same training methodology, but proper breathing is essential in any martial art.

Frankly, I see this as, again, appealing towards a different demographic, and one that would probably not be interested in traditional hapkido anyway (but who might after being exposed to CHKD).

Daniel

 

[J Ellis]

Through my study of advanced and mass communications, I have learned that communication goes far beyond speech. If we perceive something - anything - from a thing, an organization for example, it has communicated with us.

You might want to keep studying. You're describing projection of your own biases, not objective communication from an outside party.

I'm not trying to defend CH or Mr. Pelligrini. But modifying a system and demonizing it are two very different things. I don't know whether Mr. Pelligrini has done the latter, but no evidence has been presented to suggest he has. He has undoubtedly done the former, and he obviously has his own reasons for doing so.

Just because someone does something differently than you or I do it does not mean they are criticizing or condemning those who do not follow their own practices. Know what you do, why you do it, and how to do it effectively, and then be content to let others do what they want. If their approach is flawed, the truth will eventually become apparent.

Joel

 

[goingd]

To be blunt, it would be absolutely lovely to be taken at what I said as a whole, not selectively. I made very clear that I understand and respect the system of CH, itself. I did not criticize the fact that it does not emphasize high kicks, forms, dan jun, etc. I would love for my statements to not be called "hoo-ey."

Communication is almost never intentional, believe it or not. Our perceptions are less about choice. We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue. An organization is a designed body with intention and purpose and can certainly convey a great deal more than a cloud.

I pointed out that I did not expect people to agree with me - I was not seeking to criticize and certainly not to argue. At that, I will leave the discussion to continue without me. Peace.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Communication is almost never intentional, believe it or not. Our perceptions are less about choice. We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue. An organization is a designed body with intention and purpose and can certainly convey a great deal more than a cloud.

Nobody would disagree with this. It is your use of the term rhetoric that raised eyebrows. Rhetoric requires a human agent.

The way that an organization is structured and it's stated goals may communicate things that are not directly stated, but this is not the same as rhetoric.

The reason that this was questioned is because your statement reads that you have no problem with GMP, but with his system's rhetoric which demonizes traditional hapkido.

Demonizing is also a very strong choice of wording, which is the other reason that your statement raised eyebrows.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Since this has turned in to a fun discussion.

"We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue."

I beg to differ here. The sky is Blue. We are taught to call the color we are perceiving blue but it is that color regardless. So the nature of it is what it is and how we perceive it is what it is. It is our definition of that and our perception which we are taught to label.

 

[goingd]

Since this has turned in to a fun discussion.

"We do not particularly choose to perceive the sky is blue - we are taught that the color of the sky is blue."

I beg to differ here. The sky is Blue. We are taught to call the color we are perceiving blue but it is that color regardless. So the nature of it is what it is and how we perceive it is what it is. It is our definition of that and our perception which we are taught to label.

Even though I said I would leave this question be, I have to respond to this fun one:
That was exactly my point. ^_^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I posted about this on another thread, but since the GMP=poor footwork comment was drilled to death in this thread, I thought I'd make mention of it here.

The Pasedena Maryland seminar has come and gone, and I was unable to attend. However, one of the guys from our school did attend. This gentleman is a fourth dan and an instructor, and fairly traditional, just for perspective.

I asked him if GMP conducted the seminar, and he said that he had and that he had been GMP's throw dummy a couple of times. He had high regard for GMP's execution.

Since comments about his footwork have been made on many CHKD threads, I specifically asked him about it, particularly the smaller steps that he took in some of the videos that I have seen. He said that there was none of that and that GMP was very, very smooth and his footwork solid.

While I did not see it personally, this gent's evaluation was good enough for me to assume that GMP is capable and has a solid foundation.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe it was In-Sun Seo...

So that would be Susinkwan?

Daniel