Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree. Where I'm from all Hapkido is combat. I have never understood the difference that this man was trying to make. Combat Hapkido? Do you not take all Hapkido to be ready in combat. So confusing

The title is all about marketing. That is not a criticism, mind you, but an observation. It is pretty clear that he is going for a demographic that either normally steers away from traditional arts, or for a demographic that wants to add 'combat' grappling to their striking. By calling it 'Combat Hapkido', he makes use of his background and differentiates his system from that of other hapkido kwans.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know if that last one is GMP or not, but it looks a lot more fluid than other videos that I have seen and the footwork has fewer of the little adjustment steps.

No, it's not Mr. Pelligrini, but I think it's a good demo of what CH can be.

What are the criticisms against Pelligrini's performance anyway? As I understand it, it's

1) halting footwalk with too many steps
2) improper display of distancing or interval
3) he demonstrates lineal force rather than circling to exert pressure to force his partner down

Just a guess without seeing him live, but I attribute #1 and perhaps #2 as well to the camera instructional effect. My guess is that he's smoother in person, and some of the outside distancing can be chalked up to trying to make the shoot clear for the camera.

What I tried to show by haphazardly picking these videos is that these arts break what I consider optimal distancing at times. In some of the defenses, the defender already has the correct interval if he were to simply circle and then spiral the attacker down to the floor. However he chooses to eschew the current advantage in favor of a violent motion into the attacker and down. This might be less efficient but it can still be both painful and effective.

 

[Kumbajah]

I have seen that last video before and I would put their execution far above GM P's -

Which leaves more questions than it answers - from their webpage -

http://www.hapkidokoulu.fi/kouluttajat.html

It seems the head instructors also holds rank from the World-Ki-Do /HanMinJok Hapkido Association. Which is In Sun Seo's organization. I can't tell if they are cross ranked because of the Association of GM P and GM Seo or if they had prior or congruent study. The head instructor also seems to have JJ and ITF TKD experience. ITF also has "hapkido elements"

So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch from GM P given his execution.

So are they doing CHKD wrong?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have seen that last video before and I would put their execution far above GM P's -

Which leaves more questions than it answers - from their webpage -

http://www.hapkidokoulu.fi/kouluttajat.html

It seems the head instructors also holds rank from the World-Ki-Do /HanMinJok Hapkido Association. Which is In Sun Seo's organization. I can't tell if they are cross ranked because of the Association of GM P and GM Seo or if they had prior or congruent study. The head instructor also seems to have JJ and ITF TKD experience. ITF also has "hapkido elements"

So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch from GM P given his execution.

So are they doing CHKD wrong?

So if that guy opened up a school with a CHKD marquee and you were in the market for a school, would you give it a shot based on his execution?

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

If you gave me a choice between that guy and GM P - I'm picking that guy 100%.

 

[dancingalone]

So where the smoothness comes from - I can't say. It would be a stretch from GM P given his execution.

So are they doing CHKD wrong?

I thought Combat Hapkido was a fairly eclectic organization with members from an assortment of backgrounds. It would be no surprise to me if some members' expression of CH is more circular than what is displayed on the instructional video by Pelligrini. And doubtlessly they shape what CH is to an extent.

We have brought up the ITF several times in discussing hapkido. General Choi had several noted lieutenants who all added to the system. Nam Tae Hi even created a few of the patterns used.

 

[Kumbajah]

I thought Combat Hapkido was a fairly eclectic organization with members from an assortment of backgrounds. It would be no surprise to me if some members' expression of CH is more circular than what is displayed on the instructional video by Pelligrini. And doubtlessly they shape what CH is to an extent.

We have brought up the ITF several times in discussing hapkido. General Choi had several noted lieutenants who all added to the system. Nam Tae Hi even created a few of the patterns used.

That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method.

Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, it's not Mr. Pelligrini, but I think it's a good demo of what CH can be.

Yes, I did enjoy it.

What are the criticisms against Pelligrini's performance anyway? As I understand it, it's

1) halting footwalk with too many steps
2) improper display of distancing or interval
3) he demonstrates lineal force rather than circling to exert pressure to force his partner down

I'd say that that pretty well sums up the criticisms of him that I have read here. I am interested in what people have to say about the system itself as well.

Just a guess without seeing him live, but I attribute #1 and perhaps #2 as well to the camera instructional effect. My guess is that he's smoother in person, and some of the outside distancing can be chalked up to trying to make the shoot clear for the camera.

What I tried to show by haphazardly picking these videos is that these arts break what I consider optimal distancing at times. In some of the defenses, the defender already has the correct interval if he were to simply circle and then spiral the attacker down to the floor. However he chooses to eschew the current advantage in favor of a violent motion into the attacker and down. This might be less efficient but it can still be both painful and effective.

I have not seen enough GMP vids to compare these to him and say that he is generally superior or inferior in execution to any of the above, but that last video did look a lot more impressive than what I have seen. Though as you point out, those guys weren't giving tutorial. Still, that last one really made me take notice.

Believe it or not, I am generally more critical of video execution than I am of in person/live. If I see someone live and they are not up to par, realistically, they could simply have had a bad day. With video, you can do it over and over until you get it right. Given that video instruction is a fairly core part of what he offers, and given the fairly high production quality of the videos I have seen, I am disinclined to attribute too much to him simply being on camera.

As for why I am continuing in this discussion, even though I have virtually no interest in the outcome of the debate? There is so little discussion in the hapkido section to begin with that I'll participate in anything here that I can. Secondly, I truly would like to see well reasoned cases made regarding the system and GMP's abilities without the acrimony that often goes with these discussions.

Obviously, the man is on people's minds or topics about him would go nowhere, so I figure there must be something to talk about.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you gave me a choice between that guy and GM P - I'm picking that guy 100%.

Thanks, though that wasn't quite what I was asking.

Not a choice between the two: that guy opens up a school with a CHKD sign. You see him train and you are also looking for a school (perhaps you moved, your school relocated out of your reach, went under, master died, whatever other hypothetical you can think of that would put you in a shopping for a place to train situation).

Knowing that it is Combat Hapkido, would you still give it a shot? And yes or no, why?

No wrong answer and I'm not trying to debate you into a corner or anything; just curious.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Hi Daniel,
one reason I think there is less discussion here is that Hapkido is a more flowing art. In general its not good or bad what another school or style does but more of, its different. Thats our nature.
That makes for tough discussions because in general we agree to disagree or at least see the similarities and understand the differences.
I have no problem with Combat Hapkido, but yes chime in just to make sure folks dont confuse what that is with the other various styles out there.
If I did not train my style I would probably have transitioned to it since I was also a TKD guy. At the same time I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to what I was and have become absorbed in to it for long time.

 

[dancingalone]

That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method.

Unless you know the definition of what Combat Hapkido is, you can not know whether people are reverting to the 'old' ways or not.

The main descriptors people seem to use with CH is that it removes the fancy kicking & breakfalls & sword practice found in some hapkido styles. That seems like it leaves a lot of room for other things including smoothness and circular movement even if it is reminiscent of traditional hapkido.

Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. There have been teachers in the past who are unable to perform techniques to their standard due to age or chronic injury. They still teach using a senior student as a physical model.

Not knowing Mr. Pelligrini myself, I still recall reading something about him having physical problems that prompted a move outside of taekwondo in the first place. And I don't think it out of the question that someone within an organization would eventually have better skill than the leader. I see it myself in my dojo. I have a student that will eventually be better than me if he keeps up the practice. It happens.

To Daniel: the Wikipedia entry for Combat Hapkido actually mentions a few interesting points which I had thought was the case about external influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido

"Combat Hapkido's strategy includes adopting features from styles like Jeet Kune Do, Jujutsu, Western Boxing, and Kuntao Silat[6] to enhance its core curriculum. For instance, some Traditional Hapkido practitioners have complained that Traditional Hapkido doesn't provide an extensive ground self-defense curriculum;[7] Combat Hapkido attempts to address this by researching and incorporating grappling techniques from different styles.[8] Another instance is the incorporation of derived-versions of Jeet Kune Do trapping and entering techniques to enhance transitions into Combat Hapkido's core Joint Locking and Throwing techniques. "

So there we have it. Combat Hapkido is not traditional hapkido. No need to be offended by the appearance of what it is or is not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That would seem antithetical to the "Combat" Hapkido notion - people reverting back to the "flawed, old, traditional" method.

Hard to say if it is antithetical or not. I would be interested in what is actually taught as opposed to what is used as marketing gimmicks in advertisements. I generally buy my cars based on the car's actual specifications and what it is rated for and how it is rated, and of course the road test, not on the manufacturer's promotional material (I have a very strict definition of 'sports car' and 'truck', both of which are applied liberally to vehicles that fit neither bill. I may still buy one of those vehicles based on whether or not it fits my needs, even though the promotional material touts it in a way that is off-putting.

Shouldn't GM P be the model for execution not a 3rd Dan?

Not if he isn't going to be the one teaching me. And since I don't do videos, I care only about what my instructor looks like. I don't care how good Choi Yong Sul was. I do care how good the guy or gal teaching the class is.

Now, if I were doing the video thing, then I would answer a definite yes, seeing as he is the one presenting.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To Daniel: the Wikipedia entry for Combat Hapkido actually mentions a few interesting points which I had thought was the case about external influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido

"Combat Hapkido's strategy includes adopting features from styles like Jeet Kune Do, Jujutsu, Western Boxing, and Kuntao Silat[6] to enhance its core curriculum. For instance, some Traditional Hapkido practitioners have complained that Traditional Hapkido doesn't provide an extensive ground self-defense curriculum;[7] Combat Hapkido attempts to address this by researching and incorporating grappling techniques from different styles.[8] Another instance is the incorporation of derived-versions of Jeet Kune Do trapping and entering techniques to enhance transitions into Combat Hapkido's core Joint Locking and Throwing techniques. "

So there we have it. Combat Hapkido is not traditional hapkido. No need to be offended by the appearance of what it is or is not.

Appreciated.

Not to split hairs, but the trapping in Jeet Kune Do is actually, as I understand, from Wing Chun. JKD is, to my knowledge, less of a style and more of a training philosophy.

Jujutsu is actually the basis of hapkido, though it is a specific typy (Daito Ryu). So the question then is what ryu of Jujutsu is incorporated?

Also, when you mentioned that it divests flashy kicks and breakfalls, I assume that you mean flashy breakfalls. I consider falling and rolling to be fairly essential, and I assume that CHKD has some curriculum for falls and rolls.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

@ Daniel - instruction is about the instructor not the style. I'm not impressed ( maybe a little embarrassed for ) GM P. The other guy seems to know what he's doing.

@ Dancing - If the two executions are so dramatically different, I think it's fair to assume the founder is doing it in line with the art in question's tenets and methodology vs a third dan. If GM P can't execute to the standards that he wishes or aspires to why be the model on his tapes and promotional material?

I am in the same boat as Dan - if people want what he's offering have at it. I can only offer a "traditional" point of view at the "hapkido" skills. He's not keeping with the principles.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

@ Daniel - instruction is about the instructor not the style. I'm not impressed ( maybe a little embarrassed for ) GM P. The other guy seems to know what he's doing.

Absolutely agree with you regarding instruction. And I agree regarding the other guy.

RE. GMP, some of what I have seen of him (which is not very much) looks quite good. Some left me wondering why, which is why I ask if there is some technical reason for his footwork. Or if perhaps he suffers from knee or joint problems and has had to modify his steps accordingly. Or perhaps its the combat boots.

Since that has not been forthcoming (Dancing's speculation aside), I will refrain from commenting any further than I have on GMP's execution.

Time to head out. I'll check in later.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Not to split hairs, but the trapping in Jeet Kune Do is actually, as I understand, from Wing Chun. JKD is, to my knowledge, less of a style and more of a training philosophy.

Lordy, this is whole new mess of beans that JKD people fight over. Suffice it to say that when some say JKD they nonetheless mean the training techniques and methods that Bruce Lee favored himself. Some others say properly, the term should be jun fan gung fu then, named after Bruce Lee's Chinese name.

Jujutsu is actually the basis of hapkido, though it is a specific typy (Daito Ryu). So the question then is what ryu of Jujutsu is incorporated?

I DOUBT it is Daito-ryu, which as you know is fairly stylized and looks nothing like what we see on the Combat Hapkido videos. Maybe some Hawaiian blend like Danzan-ryu.

Also, when you mentioned that it divests flashy kicks and breakfalls, I assume that you mean flashy breakfalls. I consider falling and rolling to be fairly essential, and I assume that CHKD has some curriculum for falls and rolls.

Yes, they have the basic rolls and break falls although the videos do not teach it at all. They basically leave it up to the local instructor to teach his spin of what each should be. What I mean by flashy is those high flying ones that some aikidoka like to practice, replete with leaps and flips in the air.

 

[dancingalone]

@ Dancing - If the two executions are so dramatically different, I think it's fair to assume the founder is doing it in line with the art in question's tenets and methodology vs a third dan. If GM P can't execute to the standards that he wishes or aspires to why be the model on his tapes and promotional material?

<shrugs> I don't regard the training videos as a terminal picture of what Pelligrini is capable of. They were filmed some time ago as I recall they were available on VHS tape. I have no doubts Pelligrini has grown in his art since the filming and it might be time to refilm them to address some of the valid criticisms made about his execution of certain techniques.

You mentioned that CH started as an add-on program for taekwondo schools. It sounds like he continuously revised and grew his curriculum since they're coming out now with things like cane and trapping instruction.

In the end, it might simply be that Mr. Pelligrini is a better teacher and businessman than he is a martial artist. I would like to work with him in person someday and will likely take the opportunity next time a seminar is available in my area. By all accounts the man is accessible and willing to demonstrate on the mat. He doesn't hide.

I am in the same boat as Dan - if people want what he's offering have at it. I can only offer a "traditional" point of view at the "hapkido" skills. He's not keeping with the principles.

And that's fine if you remain factual in your criticism. He does not always follow the principles of traditional hapkido. He might have entirely valid reasons for doing his own thing as it is influenced by silat, boxing, JKD, etc.

 

[Kumbajah]

Yes, they have the basic rolls and break falls although the videos do not teach it at all. They basically leave it up to the local instructor to teach his spin of what each should be. What I mean by flashy is those high flying ones that some aikidoka like to practice, replete with leaps and flips in the air.

How do you practice throws with out teaching falls? Who are you going to throw?

As for Aikido's breakfalls - Some of the big breakfalls are the only way to protect yourself - Shihonage - if the thrower doesn't let you roll or sit out you have to take a big fall.

Falls are more practical for self defense than anything else taught.

 

[Kumbajah]

And that's fine if you remain factual in your criticism. He does not always follow the principles of traditional hapkido. He might have entirely valid reasons for doing his own thing as it is influenced by silat, boxing, JKD, etc.

He's the one invoking Hapkido - "Combat Hapkido" - I'll take him at his word - that's what he's trying to do. He misses the mark.

 

[dancingalone]

How do you practice throws with out teaching falls? Who are you going to throw?

Well you can't. That's why I wonder about this video learning aspect of Combat Hapkido. If they don't teach falls at all on the DVDs, by definition you must seek some type of local instruction at the very least for this missing information. Perhaps one is supposed to attend a CH seminar...

As for Aikido's breakfalls - Some of the big breakfalls are the only way to protect yourself - Shihonage - if the thrower doesn't let you roll or sit out you have to take a big fall.

Yes, that's true. But surely you're aware of the more fanciful ones involving aerial spins practiced by some of our younger Aikido friends? I refer to those, and Pelligrini is likely too when he says his system does not have them.