Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by yorkshirelad, Apr 22, 2010.

  1. yorkshirelad

    yorkshirelad Master Black Belt

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    I saw the title of this thread on another forum yesterday. Some Sin Moo guy was saying rather nasty things about Gm Pelligrini and about the time it took him to reach 9th Dan.
    I have never met Mr Pelligrini, but I must say that his new book on Combat HKD is one of the most honest and refreshing martial arts reads that I've ever read.
    My own HKD instructor in Ireland became 4th Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido in '92 after a 4 day course. That's right from no knowledge of HKD to 4th Dan in 4 days. Before that he was an outstanding kickboxer and 4th dan in Kyukoshinkai Karate. He is now 9th Dan. That's right 18 tears training in HKD and he's 9th Dan. Funnily enough, that's the same rank progression as Gm Pelligrini. The only difference is that Gm Pelligrini tested for 1st-3rd dan also. Now I am not slating anyone. My Hapkido instructor is an amazing practitioner. I really enjoyed training with him, so much so that I took private classes 4x per week and every group class. My work mate and I would do all our private classes together and while working nights, we would train there too, we enjoyed it that much. And, due to our constant, everyday (for multiple hours) training and previous martial arts experience, we tested for chodan in only 5 months.
    That being said, I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with Gm Pelligrini's rank. He has progressed at a slower level through the ranks that many Sin Moo practitioners. I like what he has done in making Hapkido accessible to everyone by taking out the high, impractical kicks and the meditation/ki development and has left it up to the individual what they emphasize (military combatives, police defensive tactics, ASP ect). I like it so much that I am seriously considering joining his association.
    The other complaint about Gm Pelligrini on the other forum was that he is all about the money. Well, yes he does have DVDs for sale, but they are cheap compared to many associations and his association dues are reasonable too. Maybe the complainant means that he is cashing in on the vast numbers joining GmP's association, but if this is the case, surely he is offering a product that people want and are happy with. I'm all about capitallistic endevours.
     
  2. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    I thank god everyday for my teacher and my Kwan!!
     
  3. MasterPistella

    MasterPistella Yellow Belt

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    I've heard the complaints about GM Pallegrini's rank also. My feeling is who cares? If he can deliver, then deliver. I also happened to go to a camp a few months back & a friend of mine introduced me to a new student of his who got cho dan under GM P & just switched to Sin Moo. She said that after looking at both, she felt SM had more to offer. To each his own. I have found him to be a very nice man & great once you get him in a social setting. Enjoyed a party with him in the Poconos a few years ago.

    Either way, good luck to everyone with their training.

    JP
     
  4. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    If someone doesn't like his hapkido, fine. That's at least a good reason to criticize the man. Not sure any Korean stylist should be yanking chains about Pelligrini's rank however. If you delve back far enough, many if not the majority of Korean systems have cloudy beginnings.
     
  5. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    In my opinion, any rank above fifth is administrative and to a degree, honorary (in most arts). Few arts have new material beyond fourth or fifth dan. Rank at that point is about time in grade and what one does for the art. Often promotion of the art, running schools, etc.

    Considering that the kyu/dan system is a fairly recent innovation, was made for competition bracketing, and was not even Korean to begin with, I think that we get way too caught up with it. If you are not the guy running the class, then you are the student. If you don't like the guy running the class, go find another class. That pretty much sums it up.

    GM. Pelligrini is an organizational head. That is really all that matters. Whatever rank he is, be it eighth or ninth degree, or whatever, doesn't matter. It's his org. If you like what he has to offer and how his organization is put together, then his rank shouldn't be an issue. If you don't like what he has to offer or how his organization is put together, then his rank still isn't an issue because you won't be a part of it anyway.

    Daniel
     
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  6. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Indeed. Let's try to find some hard validation of Choi Yong Sul's background in DRAJ before going ape about GMP. Whatever his background was, he had an effective art that people asked him to teach.

    And lets not forget about stories of magic jetliners. You know, the ones that you board as a third dan, fly to another country, and leave the plane as a ninth dan.

    Daniel
     
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  7. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wish I could find the article where GMP said that in an interview and it started a whole lot of negativity against him and his art..
     
  8. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Of course. Nobody wants their fabrications or embellishments challenged.

    Daniel
     
  9. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    How true..
     
  10. Kumbajah

    Kumbajah Purple Belt

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    The problem shouldn't be what rank he is, he is the founder of is own system - he's beyond rank. He could claim 1000th dan, if he chose.

    Also, the rank he has received was given by traditional Hapkido organizations - so if the rank is not deserved the blame is on them as well.

    The only way this is a problem that I see, is that the rank is seen as proof of ability and as a representation of authority. "Of course you should learn form him! He's a 9th dan!"

    He may do COMBAT hapkido really well but traditional Hapkido, not so much. To the uninitiated CHKD and THKD, may be thought of, as the same. It is misleading. Although, It's only confusing to people that don't know good traditional hapkido.

    He could have saved himself a lot of grief from Trad HKD buy calling his art something else. I don't think anyone would care about him if he had done that. As soon as he steps on the mat, his ability (or lack thereof) is evident .

    I wouldn't sweat it - there are many people practicing bad budo - can't save them all. :)
     
  11. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Absolutely.

    Again, absolutely.

    There seem to be so many self appointed gudans out there that I'm not sure that being one has the impact that it once did. Of course the other issue is gudan in what? If your gudan in Haedong Geomdo, but I want to learn karate, your gudan is unimportant.

    That of course brings us to this...

    I think that most people see the COMBAT prefix and know that it is not traditional hapkido. And anyone who is unsure will be quickly corrected, as he not only makes no pretense of being traditional, he outright states that he is not.

    Again, absolutely.

    The question is this: is there enough of a connection to whatever traditional system he learned in, or to traditional hapkido in general, that the term is still accurate?

    People would care about him if he were making money with his DVD's and such. Especially if they are not. If he did everything exactly the same and called it, "Combat Striking and Grappling" instead,the same people would have their noses rubbed the wrong way, mainly because he would still be claiming a hapkido background and would have said all of the same things regarding the things that he did to make his system not-traditional.

    And again, I agree: his ability is evident once he is on the mat.

    Whether or not it is bad is, as you said, unrelated to his rank. Though technically, being called hapkido, it isn't budo.:p

    Daniel
     
  12. Kumbajah

    Kumbajah Purple Belt

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    I like the alliteration of "Bad Budo" rather than "bad mudo" - that sounds like you are scolding a dog :)

    I don't think the money is the issue - most traditional HKD instructors don't have DVD's for sale. GM P puts his CHKD as an improvement on THKD - it's laughable when viewing the HKD part of his curriculum. He's just not skilled at THKD. So using the name Hapkido name is offputting. He can't do the THKD how is he going to improve it?

    Also, If CHKD is so great, call it something else. Take pride in your "new" invention. Apparently Hapkido is flawed and needed improvement. :rolleyes: Why would you want to associate with "old and cruddy THKD?" :)

    Anyway if people want to pay for his "instruction" - as the saying goes "You can't cheat an honest man."
     
  13. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Now I know what to name my next dog.:p

    As for the rest, to quote Granfire, I have no dog in this race.

    I have watched some videos on Youtube and I simply assume that what he is doing is his own thing with some sort of HKD connection. I also watched a CHKD yidan grading that did not feature GMP and looked like less of a demo and more like what I would expect to see in an actual school.

    As far as content, there were some similarities with what we do at our dojang, but it was different enough that I would consider it a different system. Given how different two karate systems can be, yet both still be considered karate, I really don't care if he calls it CHKD or GMPHKD. I only know that it isn't the HKD that I have been taught. None of the techniques looked like made up nonsense or larping. They looked like functional techniques that if practiced consistently with resisting opponents would likely serve one well if the need to use them ever arose.

    As far as what I saw in terms of execution, the grading video looked like about what I'd expect for an average ildan testing for a yidan in the average commercial school. Take that as you will. As far as GMP goes, all of the videos that I saw were demo videos with a soundtrack and GMP performing a series of locks, strikes, takedowns, submissions, and weapon disarms of various sorts, all while wearing a stars and stripes dobok or military fatigues.


    Yes, there was a certain coolness factor to it, but it was a demo, so that is expected. His execution didn't raise my eyebrows for the selection of techniques that he displayed, though his footwork was decidedly different from what I am used to. I cannot say if this was due to a footwork issue or him wearing shoes, or him doing it that way on purpose. I generally reserve a final judgment until seeing the person demo it live and in person, and if possible, with me (though I don't know how likely that is with a well known name such as him).

    Daniel
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  14. yorkshirelad

    yorkshirelad Master Black Belt

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  15. Kumbajah

    Kumbajah Purple Belt

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    And that constitutes a majority (most) how? And you've heard them bash GM P when?

    BTW - 3 of those people have died. The other 2 are Sin Moo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
  16. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    Daniel,
    Demos should be the best. Things to look for though
    Three core principles : Hwa/Won/Yu, "not being employed". Circles, he enters and does techniques in a very linear matter. basics, instead of pushing to the ground with force one should rotate out etc.
    Non resistence, again very linear force on force entries, strikes and blocks.
    Water, very key to taking balance and redirecting. enveloping the person. His techniques are so far out that a real person will have their balance and strength to resist.
    Footwork as you mentioned tells a lot. Traditionally the lower belts do a technique and take about 5 steps, the higher belts 3 but the Black Belts should be able to take 2 or 1 and many cases none. Its huge indicator of skill in unbalancing and controlling the other persons energy which you are using versus creating your own all over the place.
    I am not saying good or bad ...these are just important things in good HKD for anyone thats looking ; )
     
  17. yorkshirelad

    yorkshirelad Master Black Belt

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    I can't understand why you feel selling DVDs is wrong. If you do think it is wrong, then do the people who were Hapkido pioneers get a pass by you because they have died?

    The title of the thread is Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido, so why wouldn't I mention Sin Moo DVD salesmen, namely Ji Han Jae and Jurg Zeigler?

    Of course, the people I mentioned, who also DVDs were the people I just remembered off hand. There are plenty more traditional Hapkido masters who have/do sell DVDs.

    Oh and BTW, I have heard one very high ranking Sin Moo Hapkido teacher bash Gm Pelligrini and this particular guy also seel DVDs, but not quite so many as Gm P.
     
  18. Kumbajah

    Kumbajah Purple Belt

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    It's not about the DVDs - that's the point - Most Hapkido Masters and practitioners don't have a DVD series so thats not their issue with CHKD. I was only pointing out they are dead to show they aren't bashing GM P. They can't - they're dead.

    As for the rest of us slobs - we don't bash GM P because he makes money but because he isn't very good at hapkido. And he in turn says that HKD needed improvement. He can't do the art that he says he's improving.

    It's actually pretty funny if you can step back from it.
     
  19. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    My problem is not with GM P. system or its substance, or even so much with his rank. I take issue, though, mostly with this rhetoric presented by Combat Hapkido that seems to demonize Traditional Hapkido.
     
  20. yorkshirelad

    yorkshirelad Master Black Belt

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    Ah, I get it now. I didn't quite understand your point about DVDs and deceased Hapkido master. If he said that Traditional Hapkido needs to be improved, then I would agree with him. Not that I think there is anything wrong with Traditional Hapkido, but because I believe that anything of value can be improved (except Jessica Biel's bod and claim Jumper 9 layer chocolate cake).

    If he said that Combat Hapkido is the improved version of Traditional Hapkido, thern maybe that is the case for him. Nobody develops an art and then claims that it is inferior to its predecessor. I'm sure that when Ji developed Sin Moo, he thought that it was superior to the Yawara that Choi taught him and I'm sure that Joo Bang Lee thought that Hwarangdo was also superior. I'm convinced that my training methods are far superior to all you guys who post on Martialtalk ( just kidding, don't want to piss off Daniel, he's a big guy who's used to sticking his foot in people's faces).
     

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