Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems

[Daniel Sullivan]

Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and parred down the 5,000(?) techniques to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world. It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques

Terry, my apologies at not responding sooner.

I wanted to comment on the bolded part.

As a "traditional" hapkido practitioner, I have not observed anything resembling 5000 techniques, at least not in our system. I have friends who hold higher grades than I do in the IHF and they don't seem to find 5000 distinct techniques either.

The curriculum in our organization consists of 72 hoshisul drills, roughly ten different knife defenses, ten or so different gun defenses (vs. a pistol), a similar number of defenses against knives using a belt, a similar number of sword defenses, and a similar number of cane techniques.

There are about eight distinct kicks (front, turning, side, axe, back, hook, back hook, and a crouching sweep kick) practiced low, middle and high (except the crouch). Most are also practiced with the leading and rear leg, performing the kicks while jumping, and performing them while spinning and jumping.

Hand techniques include various blocks and strikes, both opened and closed hand and both leading and rear hand.

We utilize mainly a somewhat crouched walking stance, but transition between that, a back stance, a long stance, and a horse stance.

There are front rolls and falls, side rolls and falls, back rolls and falls, performed from a crouch, standing, and with a jump.

Finally, there are six danjun breathing exercises.

You'd be hard pressed to break 300 techniques with our curriculum. I have never counted them up, but I can say that we definitely are in the sub-500 category.

Daniel

 

[Disco]

Daniel, since you have an Hapkido background and we'll presume that you have at least viewed a few of the demo video's offered on utube, what is your assessment of CHKD?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, since you have an Hapkido background and we'll presume that you have at least viewed a few of the demo video's offered on utube, what is your assessment of CHKD?

I'll link this one:

, and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXz1-3cuwWQ&feature=related.

It is GMP's CHKD demo parts one and two. Without evaluating GMP's performance (that has been done before in previous threads), here are my own observations. I recognized most every individual technique (arm bars, wrist locks, etc.) and some of the particular combinations that he used were very similar to some of the ones that we use. I had no difficulty following what he was doing. I noticed heavier use of strikes, at least in this demo.

There was one part in the first video that was all strikes and a block, which was the only one that stood out as not specifically hapkido.

There was another one where he did the arm bar and then wrapped the partner's arm around his left arm and took him to the ground, laying on top of the partner's arm to apply pressure, which also did not look specifically hapkido.

The weapon disarms were also familiar in terms of feel, though again, not identical to what we do.

In terms of technique content, I did not see anything that jumped out to me and screamed, "COMBAT!" It all looked effective and it all looked, frankly, hapkido.

There were other videos that I saw besides these, and mechanically, it all looked familiar, though it was arranged differently than our curriculum (which I would expect in any other HKD org.). Since I am not familiar with the specific curriculum that GMP learned before starting CHKD, I have no idea how much of this is similar or identical to whatever he learned previously.

I watched a CHKD ground survival video with Master Rivas, and it looked more like BJJ, though I don't believe that any pretense is made that this has been culled from hapkido.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only problem with attempting to look for a "fresh start" is that anyone from those previous years and threads (look at 2001/2002/2003 time frame), who had supposedly actual knowledge of the whys and where fores on this subject are no longer here to offer rebuttals or opposing viewpoints.

Just to follow up to this. I searched 'Combat Hapkido' and found nothing older than 2004, and in 20 pages, very little was actually combat hapkido. I ended up with every thread that mentioned combat or hapkido, including a few that were definitely CHKD.

What threads I did check out, however, came nowhere near addressing the questions that I had posed in this thread.

I don't have time at present to dig through twenty pages worth of threads, though I may do so over the next few days.

Daniel

 

[Hollywood1340]

Also look at what GMP is doing with the military, taking into account the restrictions of body armour and how fighting on the modern battlefield takes place. I'd say that's bringing some COMBAT into his system as well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In terms of technique content, I did not see anything that jumped out to me and screamed, "COMBAT!" It all looked effective and it all looked, frankly, hapkido.

Just to clarify, I meant "COMBAT" vs. "traditional" as opposed to the generic use of the word combat. In my opinion, all legitimate hapkido systems are essentially combat arts, including CHKD (which I consider legitimate as well).

What I have seen jumps out as hapkido, excepting the ground survival, which looks more like BJJ or judo (not a bad thing).

Also look at what GMP is doing with the military, taking into account the restrictions of body armour and how fighting on the modern battlefield takes place. I'd say that's bringing some COMBAT into his system as well.

I would consider that to be a more specialized form of combat, specifically battlefield combat. Again, not a bad thing.

Now, if the addition of military application is what defines his system as 'combat' hapkido, then that is fine, but that was not the indication that he gave me on the phone. What he described on the phone could have just as easily been called practical hapkido, i.e. hapkido without the more 'arty' aspects.

So far, what I have seen does not stand out as 'not hapkido' or 'not traditional', though that may be due to my own usage of the word 'traditional.' Generally, when I use the term traditional martial arts, I use it to mean fighting art as opposed to a sport (WTF TKD) or a fitness program (cardio kickboxing) or any of the other uses that martial arts have been bent to serve.

However, what I have seen thus far I have liked.

Daniel

 

[Disco]

"However, what I have seen thus far I have liked"

Well then it seems that all this thread was actually for naught. You really didn't need anyone's input after all, you've analyzed the factors you were initially looking for.

Now one of the specifics you desired was to separate the man from the system and in reflection, that can't be done. The man is the system and it is an ongoing formulation of what he is deriving from whatever sources he finds. In order to rationalize this situation, I have attempted to go back and found some threads that assist with this assessment. Page 17 - ICHF News Thread / Page 19 - JP in BB Mag Thread / Page 20 - JP Thread........All from 2004. There were other threads I'm sure, but the vault only went back so far (2004), so any additional information is unavailable. Now I offer these as nothing more than investigative information, that has already been reviewed and addressed, but not by the current members seeking information. :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"However, what I have seen thus far I have liked"

Well then it seems that all this thread was actually for naught. You really didn't need anyone's input after all, you've analyzed the factors you were initially looking for.

For naught? Not at all!

Seeing something that I like in CHKD does not mean that I can discuss it intelligently or that there isn't more to learn. Also, input from this thread has been quite valuable to me and it also led me to the phone call that I posted about earlier. Not to mention that this discussion has produced a recent thread on the topic that hasn't been trolled to the point of threadlock.

Now one of the specifics you desired was to separate the man from the system and in reflection, that can't be done. The man is the system and it is an ongoing formulation of what he is deriving from whatever sources he finds.

While I agree that the man and his system are inherently linked, one should be able to evaluate the system on its own merits.

I can discuss the merits of Shotokan without ever mentioning Funakoshi. The same is true of CHKD. It can be discussed without any mention of GMP. The system has techniques. The techniques either work or they don't. They're either practical or they're not. The techniques work a specific way that differentiates them non-HKD arts and have their own signature that marks them as Cheon Tu Kwan as opposed to Sin Moo, the IHF or the KHF. These differences can be discussed.

Most of the detractors seem to be unable to discuss the system on a technical level, most likely due to lack of substantive knowledge of the system. Which is why they default to attacking GMP.

Unfortunately, those within the system seem to be unwilling to discuss the system on a technical level (I presume that they are able). At least that is how it seems to one on the outside.

In order to rationalize this situation, I have attempted to go back and found some threads that assist with this assessment. Page 17 - ICHF News Thread / Page 19 - JP in BB Mag Thread / Page 20 - JP Thread........All from 2004. There were other threads I'm sure, but the vault only went back so far (2004), so any additional information is unavailable. Now I offer these as nothing more than investigative information, that has already been reviewed and addressed, but not by the current members seeking information. :asian:

I will check out those threads. My thanks!

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For the benefit of all here, I have linked the threads that Disco cited:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14895&highlight=ICHF+News
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11714&highlight=John+Pelligrini
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12605&highlight=combat+hapkido

I believe that these are the ones.

I also found these:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19073&highlight=combat+hapkido
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15841&highlight=combat+hapkido
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5035&highlight=John+Pelligrini

I have not had a chance to go through all of them, but for the sake of convenience, here they are.

Daniel

 

[Hapkidoman]

Hapkido is a great self defense art, wether it is Traditional, CH or what ever. I have studied both, and the joint locking techniques are the same. I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money. That is what they do, they are not "lovers" of the art, they are lovers of the Buck!!! They are "business Men" first Martial Artist second. All the rest is just fluff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hapkido is a great self defense art, wether it is Traditional, CH or what ever. I have studied both, and the joint locking techniques are the same. I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money. That is what they do, they are not "lovers" of the art, they are lovers of the Buck!!! They are "business Men" first Martial Artist second. All the rest is just fluff.

Sometimes, its just a matter of people being rubbed the wrong way by certain things. No matter what the quality of someone's skills, anytime someone establishes their own art or subset of an art, they will take flack no matter what. And the more traditional the base art is, the more flack they will take.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

A lot of people complaint was GM Pelligrini, about his background, his rank, and all of that. But at least he is out there spreading hapkido to people who wouldn't be training in hapkido otherwise. I have had my ups and downs thinking about GM Pelligrini, but at this point, I don't really care all that much because what he does doesn't really affect me, at all. To me, Hapkido is a personal art, for the individual practitioner, and however he wants to go about it is fine. I have a different perspective of Taekwondo, which is created more around unification and standardization. There is no standardization in Hapkido.

Another way to look at it is that Taekwondo came from several different schools and ended up unifying into one. Hapkido comes from one school, and ended up spreading to all sorts of different branches and schools. It is the nature of both to be what they are.

I understand that there are those who wish Hapkido like freedom for Taekwondo practitioners, and others who wish Taekwondo like standardization for Hapkido. But to chase down either one of those contrary ideas is like swimming upstream because you are going directly against the art, the pioneers who founded the art, and the momentum of the arts themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A lot of people complaint was GM Pelligrini, about his background, his rank, and all of that. But at least he is out there spreading hapkido to people who wouldn't be training in hapkido otherwise. I have had my ups and downs thinking about GM Pelligrini, but at this point, I don't really care all that much because what he does doesn't really affect me, at all. To me, Hapkido is a personal art, for the individual practitioner, and however he wants to go about it is fine. I have a different perspective of Taekwondo, which is created more around unification and standardization. There is no standardization in Hapkido.

Another way to look at it is that Taekwondo came from several different schools and ended up unifying into one. Hapkido comes from one school, and ended up spreading to all sorts of different branches and schools. It is the nature of both to be what they are.

I understand that there are those who wish Hapkido like freedom for Taekwondo practitioners, and others who wish Taekwondo like standardization for Hapkido. But to chase down either one of those contrary ideas is like swimming upstream because you are going directly against the art, the pioneers who founded the art, and the momentum of the arts themselves.

That is a fairly accurate and healthy way to look at it.

Daniel

 

[Hapkidoman]

Enough said, I have trained in both, and both are good, providing the instructor has been well trained, and I do not mean by way of "Videos", but with hands on instruction with someone that knows what they are doing. Weight lifters have a saying "You can not out train a bad diet". The same goes for MA you can not get good training from a bad instructor. Forget the system, and focus on the Instructor, and you will be fine.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Enough said, I have trained in both, and both are good, providing the instructor has been well trained, and I do not mean by way of "Videos", but with hands on instruction with someone that knows what they are doing. Weight lifters have a saying "You can not out train a bad diet". The same goes for MA you can not get good training from a bad instructor. Forget the system, and focus on the Instructor, and you will be fine.

Cannot disagree with that! Ultimately, it is the instructor that makes or breaks it.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money.

I don't know if that is true. Ray Terry used to hate on GM Pellegrini all the time and he didn't have a large Hapkido organization; he didn't even have a hapkido school, and never did. The funny thing is, GM Pellegrini started Hapkido before Ray Terry, had more actual training and taught more students that Ray Terry ever did, with his single weekend seminar and bought certificates.

 

[dortiz]

Why are you bringing up Ray Terry. You are rude!! Have your fights on your board but don't bring that crap here.
For someone so knowledgeable and with great connections you tend to really stoop low and just turn me off when you do so.