Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems

[zDom]

From Wikipedia:
"Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"

Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
"Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
"this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"

It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.

Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...

Ok, I'll bite

I don't see how society today is different enough from the 1940s (when hapkido became hapkido) to justify the rationale cited in goingd's quote.

Just where is this "modern world" line drawn?

Since the day it was named hapkido, hapkido has been "a modern art for self-defense." As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, defense against a sword, for example, is still applicable versus a club or machete.

For the record, I'm not bashing Combat Hapkido. Plenty of folk seem to be well satisfied by what they are getting from it.

Let me first state that it seems just about everyone who trained under Choi or under one of his students picked out what they wanted from the almost unlimited choices of techniques to set a curriculum — and all, presumably, believe their choices were best.

In this respect, GM P is no different than any of the rest of HKD style founders.

Here are my thoughts:

• In naming the system "Combat Hapkido" GM P has implied that other hapkido styles are NOT "for combat." I find that regrettable and somewhat offensive to all other hapkido styles.

I've heard the "its just a name" argument but suggesting the name "Combat Hapkido" shouldn't lead folk to infer that other hapkido styles aren't combat effective is disingenuous.

Hapkido was conceived as a comprehensive hand-to-hand combat system, unlike, say, Aikido, which, as I understand it, is more focused on spiritual development.

ALL hapkido is (or at least SHOULD be, IMO) for combat. A new system called "Sport Hapkido" would, on the other hand, not be objectionable as this indicates something other than the normal type of hapkido.

• There has been a lot of bashing of Combat Hapkido by traditional stylists. There's no denying it. But it seems to me as if CHKD took the first shot by stating outright that what other systems do may be impractical — so this type of backlash shouldn't be unexpected.

I've said this before in other completely unrelated discussions: impractical for WHOM? (I'll address this below)

I don't publicly point my finger at other HKD styles and criticize their curriculums as being bad choices for techniques or the number of techniques.

Privately I may think, and discuss among friends, that Brand X has too many, Brand Y too few, and that technique No. 86 as trained by Brand Z is silly.

But we certainly don't base our marketing campaigns around those opinions.

I've always thought it shows more class to say "OUR brand is GREAT because (reasons a, b, c, d, etc)" rather than "Our brand is better than Brand X because ...)

This is a bias of mine related to all marketing, not restricted to martial art marketing. And CHKD is certainly not the only system guilty of taking what I believe to be the low road.



• I have a personal bias against ANY system that offers rank promotion without face-to-face contact between student and instructor. It's a personal bias that I think is even more applicable to HKD instruction.

I have a personal bias against bumping new recruits to a dan rank based on their gup knowledge and experience from another system.

If I were, for example, to move to another town and show up at a Sin Moo Hapkido school, I would be flattered if they said "We will make you a SECOND dan!" after showing what I have been training at MSK — but how could I in good faith accept that rank?

Sure, it would be courteous to recognize my current rank (same art, after all) — but I wouldn't expect to be promoted to 2nd dan in their system until I was able to learn and perform all Sin Moo's requirements for that rank — including all the prerequisite gup material — to bring me to the point where I was eligible for 2nd dan promotion.

Regarding me noting our former green belt was bumped up to 1st dan based on a video test: it appears that the CHKD system acknowledges that we are practicing effective techniques in addition to techniques they find ineffective.

I mention it in these discussions not to degrade CHKD, I just find it speaks well of our system.


• As far as impractical techniques:

There is a wide range of opinions on the number of techniques worth spending time on —

from the guy who practices nothing but a single punch to those who have thousands and thousands of techniques with each practiced only a couple of times a year.

I think Lee H. Park did a great job in selecting a curriculum for Moo Sul Kwan. I'm sure most folk feel the same way about the curriculum they are studying.

As far as practical/impractical:

What is impractical for ME may be GREAT for a student; or the student of a student; or THEIR student.

If each generation culls out a few techniques they find to be impractical eventually you end up with fairly slim pickin's.

I agree that some techniques that we practice in MSK HKD take a LOT of time to master before they become effective. Spending time on those is, to me, what fosters growth in an individual — and therefore they have value even to an individual who is NEVER able to make it effective.

And THAT is what makes it hapkiDO instead of hapkiJUTSU, so to speak (I guess I should actually say HapkiSUL )


My opinion is, that if GM P wanted to market his system without attracting criticism from traditional styles, he would have been better of by stating that:

"These are the techniques I find most useful. Given the limited time many people have to train in today's world, this is a pared down system of techniques I believe to be most effective."

Hard to argue with that — it doesn't bash anyone. Seems to be he is reaping what he sowed.

But those of you training CHKD: sorry you are caught up taking flack for your founder's marketing decisions.

I'm sure you guys are learning and training some good stuff. If I moved somewhere where CHKD was a HKD option, I would check out the instructor along with the instructors of the other HKD options, if any.

Whichever dojang I ended up at, I would be respectful and work the material they asked me to train, and do it like they asked while in their class.

At home, I would continue to hone techniques that I have learned in the Moo Sul Kwan system. There are some techniques I don't think I could use effectively — but I would train them as best as I can in the event I end up teaching a student who might find that technique to be, for them, effective and desirable.


I guess what I'm trying to say is, respect should be a two way street and it seems to me (and I guess I could be wrong) that GM P disrespected traditional HKD first.



I think it would be fun and interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of Moo Sul Kwan and Combat hapkidos and see what we are training, if anything, that GM P consider ineffective and why.

I'd like to see what we do differently.

Also, I would like to see what we are doing the same.


But I am not passing judgement based on what I see on videos. I think I would need to work in person with someone well versed in CHKD before I could really form an opinion.

 

[Hollywood1340]

This will be my last post on this thread. Folks, it's been written to death in his own words why GMP did what he did. I'm not going to rehash it here. It seems to many who have not actually studied up on CHKD that they enter into it with preconceived notions and a misunderstanding about the intent and focus of this self defense system. Nothing I say will clear that up for you. It takes face time to evaluate what GMP has done for better or worse. Go seek out a seminar or school, speak to headquarters with what I see are some legitimate questions, and spend some mat time, and then come back with any questions you have. In the meantime no matter what you train in, enjoy it. It works for you as CHKD has worked for me.
Yours in the arts,

 

[Drac]

When did 3 seminars a year become a standard for training in anything??

I never said it was a standard, I was guessing...I attended as many seminars as I could because I could not find a local school..

Many Hapkido schools run from warm up to stretching to kicking and striking to rolling and falls and then to Techniques and weapons. Some dont do any kicking, some do more weapons than others. All do several days a week of partner on partner touch, feel, grab, throw etc. THE CRITICAL POINT!! lots of interaction to feel where a technique works and how and how on many different styles of folks. This is how one learns to adapt and flow.

We do our stretching and then rolling and falls and then we work with a partner on a variety of drills that place the emphasis on interaction..Defences against knives, handguns and clubs..

One technique rarely works. Thats the other secret. Its being able to transition based on feel and the other persons reaction. Again, this comes from practice.

Bravo, well said...That is a main point with me also..I tell students that if an attempted techique is not working MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE or DISENGAGE...

 

[Drac]

I am going to join Hollywood 1340 and leave this post...Far too many people that seem to know everything about Hapkido and everything wrong with Combat Hapkido..I have used CHKD while working as an officer in a variety of self defense situations where if I screwed it would have been my ****..I am very happy with it and will continue to study for as long as I can...For those few that still have a problem with GMP or CHKD, ATTEND A SEMINAR..Seek out one of the individuals in attendance that hold the same rank as you and work out with him..Then come back and tell us about it..

 

[dortiz]

Clearly CHKD had drawn in great players that seem to be strengthening its ranks. My current interactions have been with a great guy Named Thomas Morrison and now reading these posts I again see folks with great integrity.
Clearly good people and that makes a great organization.
My sense is that maybe some of the early marketing was trying to lure HKD folks over and maybe some bad word choices were made. At the same time it sounds like folks are getting what they need and thats what really matters.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Passedena Maryland seminar has come and gone, and I was unable to attend. However, one of the guys from our school did attend. This gentleman is a fourth dan and an instructor, and fairly traditional, just for perspective. This was the feedback that he gave.

Firstly, he liked it.

I asked him about what he thought of the techniques and he said that it was right in line with his reasons for practicing hapkido in the first place. The techniques were all solid and practical and geared towards self defense.

He did comment that there was a strong emphasis on low kicks, which both he and I agree with. He said that the techniques had some base in hapkido, but were not the same as ours. He still felt that it is hapkido, however.

I asked him if GMP conducted the seminar, and he said that he had and that he had been GMP's throw dummy a couple of times. He had high regard for GMP's execution.

Since comments about his footwork have been made on many CHKD threads, I specifically asked him about it, particularly the smaller steps that he took in some of the videos that I have seen. He said that there was none of that and that GMP was very, very smooth and his footwork solid.

While I did not see it personally, this gent's evaluation was good enough for me to assume that GMP is capable and has a solid foundation.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...

Our school is a traditional school.

Lineage: Choi Yong Sul> Ji Han Jae> Myung Jae Nam> Kim Hee Wk. Kim Hee Wk is my instructor. He broke off and started his own association, but came up through Myung Jae Nam's organization, the International Hapkido Federation. Several students with whom I have trained came from the same federation and apparently, not much is different with KJN Kim.

We are taught the principles of hwa, won (circular), and yu and to execute our techniques accordingly. We do danjun breathing, learn Korean terminology, and do stance work and footwork drills. Our footwork is circular rather than linear. We also do breaking.

We practice low, mid, and high kicks. We practice punching: straight reverse, jabs, hooks, uppercuts, hammer fists, and back-fists, and we practice other hand strikes as well: knife hand, spear hand, ridge hand, and palm strikes.

We practice open handed blocks: palm and knife hand, all in a circular fashion.

Our hoshinsul involves defenses against strikes, defense against same side single hand grabs, cross single hand grabs, two hands grabbing one hand, both hands grabbing both hands, clothing grabs, hugs, and all of the above from behind, as well as defending from a prone position.

Some of our entries involve strikes, though we tend to focus more on redirecting the attack, grabbing, and applying either a lock or a throw.

We do free sparring and apply the techniques against resisting opponents.

At first dan, we learn defenses against knifes and guns and defense against two attackers.

At second dan, we learn defense against the sword, defense against the knife using a belt, and defense against three attackers.

At third dan cane defense techniques are added and defense against four attackers is taught.

I have answered who my instructor is. I have furnished his lineage. I have given an overview of our curriculum. I would hope that a comparison of some kind can now be made.

I really hope you can make a seminar and experience it for yourself.

I would like to, though my time is limited. When I get the opportunity, I will definitely post about it.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am going to join Hollywood 1340 and leave this post...Far too many people that seem to know everything about Hapkido and everything wrong with Combat Hapkido..I have used CHKD while working as an officer in a variety of self defense situations where if I screwed it would have been my ****..I am very happy with it and will continue to study for as long as I can...For those few that still have a problem with GMP or CHKD, ATTEND A SEMINAR..Seek out one of the individuals in attendance that hold the same rank as you and work out with him..Then come back and tell us about it..

So far, this thread has not been a diatribe of all that is wrong with CHKD. The criticism that has come came on page three after numerous questions were asked and have been answered either ambiguously or with a quick comment followed by a deferment to the home office or to a seminar.

I do plan to call the home office. I will post about that after I have done so. I also have made it plain in several of these threads that I am open to and would like to attend a seminar.

I have also made it plain that I am of an open mind about the system and, frankly, have done everything that is within my capabilities to address uninformed criticism and/or outright bashing of the system.

I had hoped to have an informed and non-contentious discussion take place on the subject with this thread.

I am still hoping for that.

I hope that I do not offend, but I must state that it is disconcerting to ask what I consider to be fairly basic questions and to have them deferred to the home office or be told that I need to pay for a seminar to see the answers. I realize that some of you have been through some fairly negative discussions here in the past, so I can understand a degree of reticence, but I still find it disconcerting nonetheless.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just an update. I called the home office and left a message this morning. Being that I am on the east coast, I would suspect that they were probably still asleep when I called.

I went to the Defensive Services International, Inc homepage and found that in GMP's bio, his ninth dan is through World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido Federation.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just an update. I called the home office and left a message this morning. Being that I am on the east coast, I would suspect that they were probably still asleep when I called.

I went to the Defensive Services International, Inc homepage and found that in GMP's bio, his ninth dan is through World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido Federation.

Daniel

And a further update. I got a call back.... from Grand Master Pelligrini himself!

I told him why I was calling and referenced the MT thread. He answered my questions and was very open. I wish that I had been more prepared, as I would have taken notes and such.

He did confirm his lineage with me, studying with GM Mike Wollmershauser. He mentioned other names with whom he had trained early on, but I was not familiar with them and did not catch them; he speaks a little fast and it took me sometime to get used to his accent; he is very Italian.

I asked GMP about how CHKD addresses the self defense needs for the modern era in a different way than traditional hapkido.

His answer was, in a nutshell, that many schools teach hapkido with an emphasize on acrobatic breakfalls, high kicks, and larger movements. He said that some schools are more aikido-like and have more of a spiritual empasis, some have a strong base in judo, while still others are about personal development, and even others mainly about fitness. He then stated, "None of these are bad."

He started off saying that at the time that many traditional arts (not HKD) are hundreds of years old and that the way that they are taught never changes, which is a practice that he disagrees with. He mentioned that they were developed for people wearing different clothing, often to only one class of people, with either older people, children, or different classes of society not being taught in some cases depending on the art.

Some of those who study CHKD are in their forties, fifties, or even their seventies.

He said that his hapkido is not better than other style of hapkido, but that all kwans and all schools do not all address the same needs or the same demographic. He said that some schools are not practical enough, while others are actually too brutal for use in, say, an LEO environment where the officers do not want to be brutal but still need to restrain an offender.

He also mentioned that he works with military personnel who are in an environment where they are wearing fatigues and carrying sixty pounds of gear, so he teaches techniques differently for that environment.

He said that CHKD focuses on close quarters self defense, joint locks, pressure points, and practical strikes, rather than some of the more arty aspects.

To lay this dog to rest once and for all, he did state that what he does "is hapkido" and that it is hapkido practiced in the way that he has found to the most useful for him and those who study his system.

He stated that they do use circular movement, but it is small circle, rather than larger circles or larger motions. This fits with what I have seen, as CHKD seems more linear than what I practice.

When we concluded our call, I thanked him for his time and he thanked me for calling. I asked him if he would send me some information on CHKD and he took my address and said that he would.

My own conclusions:

Firstly, the man came across as a very decent and personable man. The fact that he called me back personally has increased my respect for him. He spoke with me for well over a half an hour, and in no way did he try to hurry through or blow me off.

Secondly, he did not denigrate or criticize other systems in any way during our conversation (nor has he in what few interview that I have read) or in any way demonize traditional hapkido. In fact, he said that in other more traditional systems, there was a great deal of value and goodness.

Finally, he has put together what he sees as practical and has tried to make it available and attainable to as many people as possible through schools, distance learning, and seminars.

And that was my first phone call with Grandmaster John Pelligrini.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Wow! Well that does say a lot. At least it confirms the integrity issue I keep finding. I should not have argued the points whether I believe them or not. Its not helpfull.
For me the lesson learned here was that Hollywood and Drac took the path of nonresistence. True Hapkidoin.
I learnred something ; )
Sounds like the seminar was good and folks are getting a lot out of it.

I have issues but I am known for that . Good thread.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For me the lesson learned here was that Hollywood and Drac took the path of nonresistence. True Hapkidoin.
I learnred something ; )

I as well

Though I restate that I had no issues with CHKD. I started this thread due to the lack of knowledge of the system expressed by some of the more outspoken detractors who couldn't get past either marketing, nomenclature, or perceived footwork issues, which apparently are as Dancing had said, an issue of explaining while moving, as virtually everyone who has been to the seminars and seen him in person states that he is very smooth.

Daniel

 

[J Ellis]

Mr. Sullivan,

Thanks for your effort and for sharing the information you have found regarding CHKD. It is greatly appreciated and helpful.

Joel

 

[Drac]

My own conclusions: he did not denigrate or criticize other systems in any way during our conversation (nor has he in what few interview that I have read) or in any way demonize traditional hapkido. In fact, he said that in other more traditional systems, there was a great deal of value and goodness.

I think I posted this once before..In all the time I have spent in his presence he has NEVER put down any other art or its Founder..

 

[tellner]

Since I practice an obscure, obsolete, effete, low-class martial art which lacks a serious advertising budget I don't have a horse in this race. But I would respectfully submit that there is a point to sword defenses.

They have little or nothing to do with defending yourself against someone with a sword. For the most part if you're going up barehanded against a quarter-assed swordsman you're just going to die. They are excellent training in working the margins of your distance and timing, especially if you're used to compensating with strength, speed or reach.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But I would respectfully submit that there is a point to sword defenses.

They have little or nothing to do with defending yourself against someone with a sword. For the most part if you're going up barehanded against a quarter-assed swordsman you're just going to die. They are excellent training in working the margins of your distance and timing, especially if you're used to compensating with strength, speed or reach.

Absolutely. Which is why we practice them in our school.

All things considered, the availability of machetes in most hardware and sporting goods stores means that there is still a potential need for defense against one. Also, last year in Maryland, there was an incident where a burglar ended up dead due to a severed hand and partial cutting of his throat because the guy he chose to rob had a katana and was using it for self defense.

While in that instance, the guy with the sword was the defender, there is absolutely nothing to prevent an off-his/her-rocker person from using a sword to commit assault and/or murder instead of a baseball bat or a crowbar. There are more places in Lake Forest Mall in Gaithersburg Maryland to buy a sword than there are to buy a baseball bat or a crowbar, both of which practice of sword defenses can help you with too.

Daniel

 

[zDom]

Yep.

And, fwiw, probably more likely to face a dumb-assed "swordsman" (i.e., nutcase with a wall-hanger katana) than even 1/8-assed swordsman

In ANY case, doing SOMETHING is better than just standing there waiting to be cut down. Slim chance is better than zero chance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Okay, so back to the topic at hand.

I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:

1. That CHKD does contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.

2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans.

3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)

4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.

5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters combat and self defense. A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.

6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.

7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content. It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.

Thoughts?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Okay, so back to the topic at hand.

I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:

1. That CHKD does contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.

2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans.

3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)

4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.

5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters combat and self defense. A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.

6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.

7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content. It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.

Thoughts?

Daniel

Seems like a fair summary to me.

#4 especially is interesting to me as I remarked before in previous threads that a slightly more linear and smaller circle-based paradigm might make for an easier transition for someone from a striking system to learn.

 

[J Ellis]

I agree. A reasonable summary after a fair hearing.

Joel