Combat Handguns

[Stick Dummy]

Gaidheal,

Not a flame or attack, but if you have not shot a 10mm - especially full power loads -be careful what you reccomend................

Your stated parameters look like they came from a gun rag errrr - magazine, and fail to mention muzzle blast, flash, RECOIL, and a few other bits of minutia that have precluded to 10mm.

Like the man said, it ain't what you got, but how you use it that matters the most.

Me I have my eye on a hard chrome. matte blue Browning HP in 40 S&W at the moment. The best of both worlds.

 

[gozanryu]

With all due respect. 9mm is notorious for over penetration, thats why they developed the 147 grain LEO subsonic rounds. The 10mm is very difficult to handle in the full power, 180 grain loads, thats why they developed the .40, a low power 10. The 10 is balistically superior, but again, you are overpowered, and over recoiled for the job. The 10mm is a fine sub gun round, with good energy out to, and beyond 100 meters, but as a handgun round, its just to much in my experience. (But, if you can make it work, it will definitely work) .45, .40, 9mm or .357 imo

 

[Gaidheal]

9mm tends to NOT penetrate, unless the round is chosen properly. I believe 147 gr is the FBI preferred load - enough penetration (at least 12" in ballistic gel) to get the job done with a JHP round. The infamous "Silver Tip" rounds and even worse "Glaser" rounds don't penetrate nearly enough to be effective except out of pure luck (or excellent shot placement - right in the eye).

Your point about recommendations is well taken, but I was not actually making one - just commenting on why I like the 10mm. Also, I did not say I have not shot, I said I can't own a weapon to carry here. If I had no shooting experience at all I'd keep my mouth shut LOL!

I too like the look of a .40S&W pistol. I tend to go with the, admittedly simplistic, adage - "Use the biggest calibre you can handle" with the proviso that the gun needs to be small enough to conceal for CCW and also that calibre alone is not enough - must an appropriate load as noted above with the 9mm.

John

 

[gozanryu]

John, there are photos and film of German soldiers (ww2 era) lining up, shooting, and killing up to 4 people with one 9mm 115 grain bullet. Having seen wound value from small arms fire, I will tell you, 9mm over penetrates, of course not as much in the HP rounds. The glasers are designed specifically not to over penetrate. I agree with your caliber rule, can you imagine how effective a .50 AE would be if it was controllable!

 

[Gaidheal]

John, there are photos and film of German soldiers (ww2 era) lining up, shooting, and killing up to 4 people with one 9mm 115 grain bullet.

From a rifle or perhaps even a sub-machine-gun, sure. That is all in what I wrote above; long barrel with right powder means very high velocity.. as in 3,000+ fps high. This is not a 'magic' number as such, but it is a useful boundary for such dynamics as "temporary stretch cavity" for instance.

Having seen wound value from small arms fire, I will tell you, 9mm over penetrates, of course not as much in the HP rounds. The glasers are designed specifically not to over penetrate.

Having seen assault rifle fire first-hand (including on a live target) I think you might need to redefine over-penetration for hand-guns. Glasers have been shown to have marginal performance as a round of use for LEO / SD work - this is because they lack sufficient penetration. This doesn't mean that of you shoot someone with such a round you can't incapacitate them, rather it means that you have much less chance compared to rounds with better penetration. All the expansion in the world is pointless if the round doesn't penetrate far enough to damage the right tissue.

I agree with your caliber rule, can you imagine how effective a .50 AE would be if it was controllable!

On paper it is the Holy Grail of ballistics! In practice...

John

 

[gozanryu]

Kewl, we agree to dissagree. I have seen the 9mm 115 and 124 grain NATO rounds blow through bodies like they were paper, fired from both pistol, and SMG. ANd your right Glasers were a good idea, that doesnt work so good in practice.

 

[Gaidheal]

We have different experience, leads to different opinions. We can both agree, I am sure, that each shooting has so many factors in it that it is different from any other in at least some way. Possibly we simply have not accounted for something in our respective model which reconciles both experiences. Either way, I know I won't lose sleep over it and I am sure you won't.

ANd your right Glasers were a good idea, that doesnt work so good in practice.

Add to that "And threatens lives because people believe hype and lies" and I agree ;¬)

John

 

[gozanryu]

What he said :supcool:

 

[GAB]

Hi All, I have been reading this thread and no one has mentioned the Beretta 92 9mm, is not it the official hand gun of the ARMY etc?

Logistics it is superior weight to the 45 round and with the 223 weighing less then the 308 nato and old 06.

That means you can carry more on a jeep or a man and have more fire power, flater trajectory etc.

I have not been following these threads much same o same o, 45 better etc..The 40 S&W is the round of now and for quite awhile, I think.

Safeties, big concern, CHP carry a S&W for that reason. I think the LEO's are making a mistake going to Glocks.

I know can pull them through just like a revolver.. But the new pistols with the extra saftey and decocks etc. are pretty good for safety. One of the reasons I still like the 1911A1 Government issue. Or the doublstacker(lots of weight) like someone else said, lots of bullets, Astra made a nice little 45, 10 shot I liked, good concelment. But it is not popular because of the military magazine release... No biggie.. I would like a few bucks everytime someone released the mag in a hurry

My few cents worth..

Regards, Gary

 

[Mark Weiser]

I prefer what I carried with the Shawnee County Sheriff Office. The S&W Model 645 45 cal semi-auto with hollow points.

 

[GAB]

I prefer what I carried with the Shawnee County Sheriff Office. The S&W Model 645 45 cal semi-auto with hollow points.

Hi Mark, I like the S&W's always, not the best trigger pulls, you get used to it, extra slack is a good thing when in a hot spot and put the finger on the trigger.

Regard, Gary

 

[Mark Weiser]

With the extra slack I was able to have better sight alignment at the range. Therefore have higher qualifing scores. Squeeze off the extra slack inhale then exhale and hold while the front sight goes over the target and just pull the tigger.

This of course you can not do when you have your speed drills. I remember having to take a stryofoam coffee cup and draw a circle around the lip of the cup on a paper target. Stepping back to the 7 yd line. Load your firearm with a magazine of 5 rounds place in your holster and wait for the whistle. When whistle blows you draw weapon and fire all 5 rounds into the circe in 5 seconds for score. I got 4 out of 5 lol!

 

[GAB]

Hi Mark,
Right, that is the very thing they would teach us when we went to the double action only, S&W Revolver 4" 38spl. Mdl 15-3. They denutted the revolvers so you had no single action.. Very similar triger pull..

Thats a good group, look at it like it is in the sternum and Taps.

I still have my 38 I don't shoot it much, I put a new hammer back into it but kept the 2" with the double action only, I always liked the 2" as a belly gun.

I made a special holster out of deerskin and carried it in my crotch area..I worked vice and if they want to check to see if you are a cop, they will do everything, but if they touch you there. It's a violation, so usually you were ok, scary spot to carry, but better then no protection at all and waiting on back up..

I knew a couple of guys who had stories of accidental mis fire while in there back pocket...LOL now, but then it was serious, no bad injury, but still off for awhile..Pretty embarrasing when coming back to roll call..

Take care, Gary.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I can see the Report now LOL! Anyways I knew this one redheaded training officer at the academy that said all he carried was a 7 inch knife while under cover. After some experience I had working I figured he was full of BS lol to make an impression on us new recurits.

I used to carry my 357 in an inside waist holster while off duty while with the Sedgwick County SO. Never got into Vice or Plain Clothes work the Reserves never got that chance too much risk I think for volunteers. The closet I got to Plain Clothes work was working Admin in the Reserve Office wearing a suit LOL!

I tell people that I knew I was in deep dodo when the very first clothing issue they handed us was a Threat Level IIA vest lol!

 

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

Before anyone discounts the 1911 (I read earlier that someone may be becoming a Glock convert?) check out the Para Ordinance line of light double action .45s in the 1911 style.

If I ever get the job I went to college to be, I may opt for concealed carry and I have fallen in love with the Para CCW. Check it out.

 

[KenpoTex]

Before anyone discounts the 1911 (I read earlier that someone may be becoming a Glock convert?) check out the Para Ordinance line of light double action .45s in the 1911 style.

I mentioned in another thread that I was (and am) considering a Glock, however that does not mean that I will ever be swayed in my devotion to Mr. Browning's "divinely inspired" design.

 

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

Excellent.

Personally I think that concealed handguns are a false sense of security inmany, if not most cases. This is of course a debate for another time. However in the (rare) proper situation the right handgun can be invaluable.

I saw te Beretta 92 mentioned. Personally I cant stand this weapon. It is large hand grip designed for those staggere magazines, is clunky and I feel like I am holding onto a 2x4 rather than a handgun. That is why I prefer the 1911. Nothing fits my hand like a 1911. The Para hi-cap's suck even more in this respect for me, but the single stacks fit my hands likea dream.

As far as the trajectory and all that of specific rounds, I dont plan on ever shooting at a person who is much more than 7-10 yards away... and even that is pushing it. Most homes do not have rooms this size. So my line of thinking is who cares how much better a 9mm or even a .40 will travel over distance, when I want to put the guy standing right in front of me on his back?

1911 baby. .45 ACP--maybe auto port it, I am not looking for a "quiet" kill. If I can successfully draw a weapon I mean to discharge, I dont care who hears it. I dont expect to need a second shot, and that little bit of edge can make a world of difference. I miss the black talons too.

PEace

Craig

 

[RRouuselot]

......

1911 baby. .45 ACP--maybe auto port it, I am not looking for a "quiet" kill. If I can successfully draw a weapon I mean to discharge, I dont care who hears it. I dont expect to need a second shot, and that little bit of edge can make a world of difference. I miss the black talons too.

PEace

Craig

Have you ever tried a Glock .45.......same amount of fun but shoots a bit smoother and tends to be better over distance.
Or maybe a .45 Colt Commander with an action job........

 

[Vanilla Heath-Bar Crunch]

What kind of action job?

I found the Para LDA line to have an excellent action. Porting isnt a need by any means, but have you tried one of these little hand-cannons? the trigger pull is incredible--a very different feel from the old-school 1911 slide trigger.

 

[gozanryu]

You dont need the Black Talons in the .45, the Speer lawman HP's are fine, besides, if you need a badass >45 round, Remington still makes the +P 185 gr. JHP's!