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yentao
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- Thread Starter
- #21
I don't bring out guns this days just for home its illegal in my country to take it out. Kids really had a sense of adventure especially boys who can't wait to see a real gun.
So are we talking combat or personal protection? I'm not sure I'd pick a standard Glock for combat. When I say combat, I mean what the guys in Iraq and Afghanistan are seeing. I know all about the wonders of modern polymers (good strength, less weight, ect.), but I think a tried and true, time tested handgun like a 1911 would be a good choice.
I know I'll catch a little flack for it, but I would say a strong revolver (.357, .44) would be good for ease of use and cleaning in rough terrain, even with the restrictions of capacity. I mean a handgun/sidearm in combat ain't meant for distance shooting and it ain't meant for heavy use. Supposedly, it's an, "Oh, s**t" weapon.
I know I'll catch a little flack for it, but I would say a strong revolver (.357, .44) would be good for ease of use and cleaning in rough terrain, even with the restrictions of capacity. I mean a handgun/sidearm in combat ain't meant for distance shooting and it ain't meant for heavy use. Supposedly, it's an, "Oh, s**t" weapon.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I'm with ya' all the way on the 1911 thing. As far as revolvers go, if you need unquestioned reliabilty then that's the way to go. I have seen photos from as recently as the mid-80's of Navy SEAL's using revolvers because it don't matter if they get wet (and we all know that SEAL's like water 
).
).I definately agree that safety is important, in fact I'm obsessive about gun-safety, however I believe that safety is based more on the responsibility of the owner than on any lock or device.yentao said:
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Stick Dummy
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- Thread Starter
- #24
I know people in the M-E carrying just about anything you can think of as far as a sidearm, and or knife.
S.E.A.L.S pretty much carry what they wish, as do a lot of the Spec-Ops folks attached to the various branches of our military.
What does getting wet have to do with reliability? I've fired M-1911's, various revolvers, GLOCKS, S&W's, Rugers, under water and is long as the air is evacuated from the chamber/barrels they fired and functioned.......
I'm just a dumb hillbilly civilian nuffin fancy
S.E.A.L.S pretty much carry what they wish, as do a lot of the Spec-Ops folks attached to the various branches of our military.
What does getting wet have to do with reliability? I've fired M-1911's, various revolvers, GLOCKS, S&W's, Rugers, under water and is long as the air is evacuated from the chamber/barrels they fired and functioned.......
I'm just a dumb hillbilly civilian nuffin fancy
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I think it probably has to do with the fact that revolvers just don't require as much TLC to keep them firing (fewer places to clean mud and crud out ofStick Dummy said:
)
punisher73
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I know while reading some books on the SEALS, S&W revolvers were picked in the early 80's because of their reliability of existing guns AT THAT TIME for the conditions they were working in (ie: swimming in the ocean, climbing up an oil platform and shooting).
They later switched to other guns as reliability improved for the adverse conditions.
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Glock is coming out with a fullsize model .45 that is a slimline also this fall. It was supposed to be sooner but they wanted to push the GAP .45 stuff first. At least this is according to the factory rep.
They later switched to other guns as reliability improved for the adverse conditions.
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Glock is coming out with a fullsize model .45 that is a slimline also this fall. It was supposed to be sooner but they wanted to push the GAP .45 stuff first. At least this is according to the factory rep.
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Denton Hines
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- Thread Starter
- #27
I like 1911's, I even like the m9, but my personal preference for the ops I've been on was always the model 66 .357 mag. You only get 6 between reloads but with 600+ ft/lbs energy you only need one shot per target. Besides, you only use your sidearm when your mp5, m4, or m590 runs out of ammo.
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sifu nick
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- Thread Starter
- #28
Personally I prefer my H&K USP .45 but at work my life depends on my Beretta 9mm.
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8253
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- Thread Starter
- #29
I like the Glock 22 or 23. They are very dependable weapons, and the .40 cal. rounds are a good intermediate between a 9mm and .45
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AnimEdge
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- Thread Starter
- #30
Whatever you can get a hold of
Silat Student
Blue Belt
AFAIK (SEALS are something of an interest of mine) the S&W snub nosed .357 was used when SEAL Team 6 was getting started. I don't think the gun has much circulation now a days, AFAIK the HK USP is currently preffered.
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Gaidheal
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- Thread Starter
- #32
H&K USP (.40 S&W) is very definitely the current SEAL sidearm. But I agree with the comments on revolvers regarding reliability in adverse weather, ease of battlefield maintenance, etc.I'd take my old favourite, the Browning HP ;¬) Lots of people ***** about 9mm, but by the time you want to be using a SIDEARM they are close enough that you should be shooting accurately for, ideally, one-round kill/disable and I'd rather have more shots... besides, HP is a pretty decent 'dropper'.
John
John
The question was "whats the best hangun for combat" The answer is "a long gun" Here are some tips:
"If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun, and a friend with a long gun"
"Accuracy is relative:most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun"
"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with itbecause it is empty"
Pistols are always secondary choices in COMBAT, now, if you are actually talking about "whats the best handgun for conceled carry in the unlikely event I might need to use it" scenario. The answer is, the one that you have trained with, and is absolutely reliable>
Thats about 2 cents worth I think. . .
"If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun, and a friend with a long gun"
"Accuracy is relative:most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun"
"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with itbecause it is empty"
Pistols are always secondary choices in COMBAT, now, if you are actually talking about "whats the best handgun for conceled carry in the unlikely event I might need to use it" scenario. The answer is, the one that you have trained with, and is absolutely reliable>
Thats about 2 cents worth I think. . .
gozanryu said:
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Gaidheal
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- Thread Starter
- #35
You hold it in your hands....... <weg>
Thanks for the spelling lesson, my misspelling of "handgun" apparently caused you to miss my point. My point is; HANDGUNS are not good combat weapons. They are always a secondary weapon, and choice in a COMBAT situation. Self defense is another matter. Combat is often a term used to describe self defense situation, inappropriately. Sorry, I'm just a detail monkey that cant spell
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Gaidheal
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- Thread Starter
- #37
As one pedant to another... self-defence is definitely combat. Sorry!
If on the other hand you meant specifically military combat, then of course you have a point. Also, although strictly speaking, as I joked above, a rifle is a 'handgun' (you hold it in your hands) that term is generally understood to mean pistols and possibly small carbines, sub-machine guns. The original question pre-supposed, I rather think, that for whatever reason in a [military] combat situation, you were down to having to use a handgun. The question was then, which?
John
If on the other hand you meant specifically military combat, then of course you have a point. Also, although strictly speaking, as I joked above, a rifle is a 'handgun' (you hold it in your hands) that term is generally understood to mean pistols and possibly small carbines, sub-machine guns. The original question pre-supposed, I rather think, that for whatever reason in a [military] combat situation, you were down to having to use a handgun. The question was then, which?
John
"whats the best handgun for concealed carry in the unlikely event I might need to use it" scenario. The answer is, the one that you have trained with, and is absolutely reliable"
With that said, the 45 ACP cartridge is a proven winner, the .357 edging it out in one shot stops, so it becomes a search for the most reliable 45 and 357. SInce it is not a good idea to use a modified handgun (talk to a Judge) to shoot someone, we should probably limit the discussion to "stock" out of the box choices. The Sig P220 is a proven performer in this category with thousands of test rounds fired with "0" stopages (jams, stovepipes, failures to feed etc.) The Colt 1911, as a rule (notwithstanding that there are several Tactical aftermarket 1911 clones that are excellent) is not 100% reliable out of the box. Of course the Smith and Wesson 586 or 686 revolver is most likely the MOST reliable and idiot proof of the lot of handguns, but kind of bulky to carry.
A high quality, well "shot in" revolver is the obvious choice for most people, with the auto loading pistols coming in a close second. I think it really comes down to what you like, and therefore, will train with. I prefer the Glock 17 in 9mm, with the right mags it gives me 19 + 1 of Federal 147 Grain Hyra Shock that is accurate and 100% reliable, I dont mind sacraficing a little ultimate "knockdown" power for the slimmer grip, superior magazine capacity, portability and, well, confidence that I have with this Glock, my prior secondary was a Sig 226, and before that, A Browning Hi-power. I really beleive, and have witnessed, that there is no replacement for training and familiarity with a weapon. I have witnessed some VERY deadly shooters with ANCIENT model 10 S&W 38's. I had a very good instructor once say, "just take all the money you spend on pistols and $%^& and Buy a sig and 7 mags, then take the money you saved and spend it on instruction, drill, range time and ammo, you'll live longer" those are words to live by. Practice, Practice, Practice.
But if possible freinds, go with the long gun! :mp5: :ak47: :shotgun: like these guys!
With that said, the 45 ACP cartridge is a proven winner, the .357 edging it out in one shot stops, so it becomes a search for the most reliable 45 and 357. SInce it is not a good idea to use a modified handgun (talk to a Judge) to shoot someone, we should probably limit the discussion to "stock" out of the box choices. The Sig P220 is a proven performer in this category with thousands of test rounds fired with "0" stopages (jams, stovepipes, failures to feed etc.) The Colt 1911, as a rule (notwithstanding that there are several Tactical aftermarket 1911 clones that are excellent) is not 100% reliable out of the box. Of course the Smith and Wesson 586 or 686 revolver is most likely the MOST reliable and idiot proof of the lot of handguns, but kind of bulky to carry.
A high quality, well "shot in" revolver is the obvious choice for most people, with the auto loading pistols coming in a close second. I think it really comes down to what you like, and therefore, will train with. I prefer the Glock 17 in 9mm, with the right mags it gives me 19 + 1 of Federal 147 Grain Hyra Shock that is accurate and 100% reliable, I dont mind sacraficing a little ultimate "knockdown" power for the slimmer grip, superior magazine capacity, portability and, well, confidence that I have with this Glock, my prior secondary was a Sig 226, and before that, A Browning Hi-power. I really beleive, and have witnessed, that there is no replacement for training and familiarity with a weapon. I have witnessed some VERY deadly shooters with ANCIENT model 10 S&W 38's. I had a very good instructor once say, "just take all the money you spend on pistols and $%^& and Buy a sig and 7 mags, then take the money you saved and spend it on instruction, drill, range time and ammo, you'll live longer" those are words to live by. Practice, Practice, Practice.
But if possible freinds, go with the long gun! :mp5: :ak47: :shotgun: like these guys!
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Gaidheal
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- Thread Starter
- #39
Right on ;¬) Different question to what was asked (as I understood it) but I agree 100% with your comments regarding training and familiarity. I also agree, mostly, with your weapon / calibre choices and reasoning. Especially the Browning HP <weg>
John
P.S. If you have the option, obviously a) don't be there b) if you are, have armed friends c) if you can, use rifles from long range. ;¬)
John
P.S. If you have the option, obviously a) don't be there b) if you are, have armed friends c) if you can, use rifles from long range. ;¬)
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Gaidheal
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- Thread Starter
- #40
Incidentally, my personal choice for concealed carry would be the Glock 29 or 20 depending on how small I needed the gun to be for concealment. Sometimes you just can't dress in a way that would conceal a standard size semi-auto and compacts are nice for those scenarios where this is the case but you still want to be armed. I'd go with the 10mm because I think it is unbeatable in this role:
It has a flat trajectory (at SD ranges)
It makes very big holes (at least as big as a .45)
It makes very deep holes (deeper than a .45 usually)
It has excellent range (further than a .45 again...)
Essentially, if I was concerned about penetration (i.e. wanted less because of concerns about passing through a target) I'd go for 9mm or .40S&W. Otherwise I'd go straight to 10mm. If I am in an SD scenario where I need to shoot someone, the above really isn't going to be an issue for me, so for CCW I'd go to a 10mm gun and for me that means Glock.
John
P.S. In fairness, I am in the UK and may not own, much less carry concealed, such a weapon. I admit this freely, lest someone wish to attack my opinions by making an ad hominem attack based on it.
It has a flat trajectory (at SD ranges)
It makes very big holes (at least as big as a .45)
It makes very deep holes (deeper than a .45 usually)
It has excellent range (further than a .45 again...)
Essentially, if I was concerned about penetration (i.e. wanted less because of concerns about passing through a target) I'd go for 9mm or .40S&W. Otherwise I'd go straight to 10mm. If I am in an SD scenario where I need to shoot someone, the above really isn't going to be an issue for me, so for CCW I'd go to a 10mm gun and for me that means Glock.
John
P.S. In fairness, I am in the UK and may not own, much less carry concealed, such a weapon. I admit this freely, lest someone wish to attack my opinions by making an ad hominem attack based on it.
