Co-ordination Set #1 & #2

[Michael Billings]

... and Circling Windmills, [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]Grasping Eagles,[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1] Parting of the Snakes[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1].[/size][/font]

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[Kenpo_Chick]

... and Circling Windmills, [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]Grasping Eagles,[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1] Parting of the Snakes[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1].[/size][/font]

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Errr...I don't get it?

 

[Michael Billings]

Errr...I don't get it?

Sorry KenpoChick, I was referring to techniques which use pieces of Coordination Set #1 or Coordination Set #2. These Sets get us ready for techniques, and in most cases, the techniques were there before the sets. So you could postulate that for some difficult techniques, sets were created to help master the motion needed in the upper techniques.

But who would do that?

I wonder?

-Michael

 

[hector]

Hi:

1. What is Coordination ?

2. The sets work´s on Basics of Kenpo,then Why we teach Coordination Set if coordination is not a basic as the stances, kicks, blocks, fingers ?

3. Which type of coordination we should achieve?

Hector

 

[Bill Lear]

Hi:

1. What is Coordination ?

Coordination
Main Entry: co·or·di·na·tion
Pronunciation: (")kO-"or-d&-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin coordination-, coordinatio, from Latin co- + ordination-, ordinatio arrangement, from ordinare to arrange -- more at ORDAIN
1 : the act or action of coordinating
2 : the harmonious functioning of parts for effective results

2. The sets work´s on Basics of Kenpo,then Why we teach Coordination Set if coordination is not a basic as the stances, kicks, blocks, fingers ?

Coordination Sets 1 & 2 each the practitioner how to employ upper body movements in harmony with lower body movements while getting the most effective results. (i.e. striking and kicking at the same time, body rotation, alignment, etc...)

3. Which type of coordination we should achieve?

The harmonious functioning of parts for effective results.


:asian:

 

[pete]

Coordination Set One conditions the body in the linear, while Coordination Set Two introduces the circular aspects of Kenpo.

I like to also combine them to bring the linear within the circular, and the circular within the linear. I'll do the "1" pattern followed by the "2" pattern in each direction.

pete

 

[Brother John]

Coordination Sets 1 & 2 each the practitioner how to employ upper body movements in harmony with lower body movements while getting the most effective results. (i.e. striking and kicking at the same time, body rotation, alignment, etc...)
The harmonious functioning of parts for effective results.
:asian:

That's pretty vague/generalized isn't it? I mean I could list ALL of the techniques and forms and say that they teach the practitioner how to employ upper body movements in harmony with lower body movements while getting the most effective results... don't ya think? I mean, hey... first technique in our curriculum: Delayed Sword. IF you don't coordinate the upper body with the lower body movements it won't have 'effective results'. I can't think of a single technique where this type of coordination isn't taught/required; can you? Since the first of these two sets isn't even taught until Purple belt... if those students can't coordinate their upper and lower body movements yet...we are in BIG trouble.
Besides, as I've already stated, it does incorporate movement that violates several important principles of Kenpo...how do you get around that?
Try kicking a punching bag with a left front ball kick and a right punch and judge for yourself if it's "for effective results".
Just a thought.

question everything...

Your Brother
John

 

[Goldendragon7]

That's pretty vague/generalized isn't it? I mean I could list ALL of the techniques and forms and say that they teach the practitioner how to employ upper body movements in harmony with lower body movements while getting the most effective results... don't ya think?
John

Yes, I would agree with you...

I mean, hey... first technique in our curriculum: Delayed Sword.
IF you don't coordinate the upper body with the lower body movements it won't have 'effective results'.
John

Really? Well I beg to differ with you here. "I" can get "effective results".

I can't think of a single technique where this type of coordination isn't taught/required; can you?
John

In the Ideal Phase ..... no. We at this level are establishing a base of material and initial coordination to an unskilled student. So, of course, you need to teach the outlined exercises to be able to eventually be able to prefix, suffix, insert, rearrange, alter,adjust, regulate or delete portions of the technique so as to be able to utilize the training and be effective in your efforts.

Since the first of these two sets isn't even taught until Purple belt... if those students can't coordinate their upper and lower body movements yet...we are in BIG trouble.
John

Where these sets are taught are not really the issue if you understand methods of teaching Physical Coordination. Sure, it could be taught in the Yellow or Orange Levels but there is so much material to cover that it was decided to be placed in the Purple Belt by Mr. Parker. Besides, No One said that there was not other material that taught the students to coordinate their upper and lower body movements....... did they?

All the "sets" are considered "appendices" to the base curriculum. With that in mind... they are just additional drills to "focus in on" certain aspects of the art to gain greater insights and skills.

Mr. Parker used to say... "at certain levels you only need to "KNOW OF" certain aspects, then at others you need to "KNOW" to a much greater level of skill, and finally you will need to "UNDERSTAND" thoroughly what it is you are teaching/doing. It is impossible to do it all at once. This is not a quick process.

As to the "BIG Trouble" you reference, I have seen many a student (of all belt classifications - including Black) that would fit your statement in many different Kenpo organizations.

Besides, as I've already stated, it does incorporate movement that violates several important principles of Kenpo...how do you get around that?
John

Like what principles does it violate? ......

Try kicking a punching bag with a left front ball kick and a right punch and judge for yourself if it's "for effective results".
John

Ok,........ I can get effective results doing this maneuver... ? I don't get it..... :idunno: ... maybe you and I are just not on the same page.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes, I would agree with you...

Really? Well I beg to differ with you here. "I" can get "effective results".

In the Ideal Phase ..... no. We at this level are establishing a base of material and initial coordination to an unskilled student. So, of course, you need to teach the outlined exercises to be able to eventually be able to prefix, suffix, insert, rearrange, alter,adjust, regulate or delete portions of the technique so as to be able to utilize the training and be effective in your efforts.

Where these sets are taught are not really the issue if you understand methods of teaching Physical Coordination. Sure, it could be taught in the Yellow or Orange Levels but there is so much material to cover that it was decided to be placed in the Purple Belt by Mr. Parker. Besides, No One said that there was not other material that taught the students to coordinate their upper and lower body movements....... did they?

All the "sets" are considered "appendices" to the base curriculum. With that in mind... they are just additional drills to "focus in on" certain aspects of the art to gain greater insights and skills.

Mr. Parker used to say... "at certain levels you only need to "KNOW OF" certain aspects, then at others you need to "KNOW" to a much greater level of skill, and finally you will need to "UNDERSTAND" thoroughly what it is you are teaching/doing. It is impossible to do it all at once. This is not a quick process.

As to the "BIG Trouble" you reference, I have seen many a student (of all belt classifications - including Black) that would fit your statement in many different Kenpo organizations.

Like what principles does it violate? ......

Ok,........ I can get effective results doing this maneuver... ? I don't get it..... :idunno: ... maybe you and I are just not on the same page.

He's kicking too high. :asian: Not to mention a punching bag doesn't account for range differences between a kick and a punch.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

He's kicking too high. :asian: Not to mention a punching bag doesn't account for range differences between a kick and a punch.
Sean

Well, I don't know what HE is doing...LOL,

and I agree on the bag issue..... Range is an issue as you point out, but so is body reaction and multiple opponent applications.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

To that same issue, ask my students about getting their head sandwhiched between a left round kick and a right roundhouse punch.....

 

[Touch Of Death]

To that same issue, ask my students about getting their head sandwhiched between a left round kick and a right roundhouse punch.....

With that in mind a good one for the bag would be a right Muay Thai over that top elbow and a left knee stike. :asian:
Sean

 

[Brother John]

Coordination Set One conditions the body in the linear, while Coordination Set Two introduces the circular aspects of Kenpo.

I think I understand where you are coming from Pete, but by the time you've gotten to Purple Belt I'd think that your body would already be 'conditioned' in the linear AND introduced to the circular aspects of Kenpo.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Mr. Conaster
Thank you for chiming in on this and my thoughts on it as I appreciate your perspective. :asian:
Please let me address each of your statements in turn.

You said:
“Really? Well I beg to differ with you here. "I" can get "effective results". ”

I’m not saying that neither you nor anyone else can’t execute delayed sword and achieve effective results, not in the slightest. What I did say was that you can’t move your lower body in disharmony with your upper body and achieve the effective results that Delayed Sword leads us to. The technique requires that your upper and lower halves agree, not contradict one another’s motion/momentum. I’m quite certain that “your” results in Delayed Sword are ‘effective’.

I asked: “I can't think of a single technique where this type of coordination isn't taught/required; can you? ”
To which you replied:
“In the Ideal Phase ..... no. We at this level are establishing a base of material and initial coordination to an unskilled student. So, of course, you need to teach the outlined exercises to be able to eventually be able to prefix, suffix, insert, rearrange, alter,adjust, regulate or delete portions of the technique so as to be able to utilize the training and be effective in your efforts.”

First off, using the Kenpo Equation/Formula to alter the set shouldn’t even enter into the problem of the viability of the set. IF it needs to be formulated in order to render it effective then the base version that you formulated from has NO reason to exist and should be replaced by it’s formulated version. Besides, the most important element of ANY facet of Kenpo IS it’s ideal phase as this is what we make our students study/practice over and over in order to ingrain the principles contained w/in it’s context. To say that an element finds it’s worth only once changed begs the question: why not change it NOW and render our daily practice of it effective?

I pose that the motion of either coordination set one or two violates basic laws of physics as well as the logic that is the bedrock foundation of the system from start to finish. That’s my basic premise and it must be understood in order to see where I’m coming from. To help in understanding my perspective on this I’ll take the set (one) apart one piece at a time to facilitate a better analysis and maybe a better discussion.
(PS: Thanks to Mr. Michael Billings for the wonderful web-site that spells these sets out so well)

Coordination Set I:
1. Drop your right foot back to 6:00 so you're facing 12:00 in a left neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a left outward block and a right back elbow strike.
2. Turn your outward block into a left punch to the head.
3. Shift into a left forward bow while delivering a right reverse punch to the solar plexus and a left back elbow strike.
4. Simultaneously deliver a right rear leg front snap kick to the groin and a left hand punch to the head with a right back elbow strike.
5. Plant into a left forward bow while delivering a right reverse punch to the solar plexus with a left back elbow strike.
AS we all know, from here it’s just a matter of covering repeatedly to different positions around the clock as you repeat this on both sides of the body over and over…

So, here’s my recap. Up to #3 I have no problem and particularly like #2, not a bad bit of vocabulary there. In #4 however you are standing on one foot and simultaneously delivering a punch. How do you stand on one foot and punch and expect to be able to deliver ANY power? Also, if you are on one foot and make any significant contact with the fist, the foot or both according to Newtonian physics you will fall down. Your base is only as wide as your one foot and you are thrusting two limbs forward and striking… your foot will turn from a base into a fulcrum and you will topple. Even if you get your other foot under you in time for you to not fall, you’ll need to spend your time/energy to regain balance while your strike(s) had more of an effect on you than your intended targets. Don’t we teach beginners that the power of a punch begins in our base and rides up to culminate in the snap/thrust of our fist? IF it begins in our base, since when is a one footed base directly beneath us sufficient base to fuel a punch? In my eyes, this falls under “useless” in the useless - un-useful - useful continuum.

Now we get to #5 where you’ve executed a front kick off of the back leg and are now reversing your forward momentum and planting it behind you, to it’s point of origin. This goes against the “Angle of No Return”: Here’s a cut and pasted definition of this principle:

Angle of No Return - Refers to the position and angle of the upper body and hips while delivering a front kick or forward motion, making it awkward, difficult, and illogical to attempt to return to your starting position. Because of the awkwardness and the time needed to return to your original position, exposure of your vital areas would work in your opponent's favor - not to mention your inability to render an immediate counter.

So, #5 is: awkward, difficult and illogical. It expands the time needed to reestablish your base and leaves vital targets open longer. It also leaves you unable to render an immediate counter. Doesn’t seem like this would be something I’d want to engender in my students motion-habits. Since this set is done SO very repetitively…why would I want to engrain this jeopardizing vocabulary?
But wait, there’s more.
Upon ‘settling’ back into your stance that you just achieved by violating one principle you “Plant into a left forward bow while delivering a right reverse punch”… the word “While” designates that it happens simultaneously. SO…at the same time that you settle back onto your right foot, you punch forward with your right hand. This is in clear and direct violation of some of the most fundamental of all Kenpo Principles: (again with the cut and pasting)

Back-Up-Mass - The use of body weight that is directly behind the action that is taking place. (short & sweet version)

There’s three ’actions’ in #6 that contradict logic, the defiance of “angle of no return” (already covered) and now settling back WHILE you punch forward… which one of these two motions gets ‘backed up’? Where is the body weight going? Toward it’s base of course, which is in the process of being established…not yet complete, so your body weight can’t be settling a stance to the rear WHILE it’s backing up a punch to the front, it can’t go in two directions at once…trying to do this defies the foundational principle of….
Body Alignment- involves the coordination of body parts to harmonize along the angles which they travel. (no harmony, lack of needed alignment)
AND
Directional Harmony!!![/SIZE]
Think about it. As you settle back w/the right foot you punch forward with the right hand. Same side of your body, the base & your body weight are moving to the rear WHILE your limb is thrusting forward? NO directional harmony.

Now, back to your comments Mr. Conaster.
You said:
“Where these sets are taught are not really the issue if you understand methods of teaching Physical Coordination. Sure, it could be taught in the Yellow or Orange Levels but there is so much material to cover that it was decided to be placed in the Purple Belt by Mr. Parker. Besides, No One said that there was not other material that taught the students to coordinate their upper and lower body movements....... did they?”

I must disagree sir. Where a thing lies in any curricula IS important. IF you were teaching this as one of a white belts first exposures to ’greater coordination’, OK (ignoring for the moment that it engrains useless motion and violates foundational principles), but you are not! This person has passed your scrutiny through all of the Yellow Belt techniques and other requirements as well as Orange Belt techniques and requirements and has already begun their journey into the Purple Belt material…and now you intend on finally getting them used to some “coordination”? I pose that there are more than a few techniques w/in the previous material that demands greater levels of ‘coordination’ from the practitioner than this set does! I’ve heard and read over and over and over that this sets purpose is to increase the practitioners coordination… yet I could sooner get Joe Schmoe-knownothing from the street to perform this set well than to learn and perform Five Swords adequately. So in my eyes, this set is trying to reinvent the wheel…and do so at a lower standard. (and oh yeah… it flies in the face of Newtonian physics too) As you said sir, there is SO much material before it that it couldn’t come sooner in the course of instruction. Also as you said, sir, the other material Also requires and thus develops coordination of upper and lower body. So why the set sir?

Next statement:
You said;
“As to the "BIG Trouble" you reference, I have seen many a student (of all belt classifications - including Black) that would fit your statement in many different Kenpo organizations.”

I could care less about whose association/group/organization this rhetorical person doing this set comes from or what color belt hangs from their hips. These things are irrelevant, they have zero to do with the “BIG Trouble” that anyone would be in were they to perform HIGH repetitions of this Physics/Principles/Logic defying set and expect that it would in any way teach them or train them to help them survive a violent confrontation…do well in the ring…or become a better Kenpoist.

Of course the average Kenpoist (of any Camp/association/organization…etc) receives so much else that DOES behoove him/her through the rest of their Kenpo training that this set doesn’t go too far in altering their over-all performance for the worst…But I don’t see how it could ever help it.

I hope you (the reader and/or Mr. Conaster) really consider what I’ve said here.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

He's kicking too high. :asian: Not to mention a punching bag doesn't account for range differences between a kick and a punch.
Sean

Did I say I was kicking high?
I don't think I did.

I've never had the pleasure/honor of meeting you face to face Sean, so I KNOW you've never seeeeen me do this set, or even kick at all.
So...how high am I kicking Sean? Chest? Head?
nope...by the book, groin.
no higher.
I hate kicking higher than the groin. I even tend to alter my personal execution of some techs that call for higher kicks...just so I can kick lower than the navel. (when I can get away with it )
As to the bag, I was speaking to the obvious recoil that effects us whenever we land either or both a punch/kick. So I KNOW that a kick and a punch have a different range. Seems some people want to brand me with some pretty 2 dimensional thinking here. :idunno:
I'm not that stupid Sean.

Your Brother
John

 

[pete]

think I understand where you are coming from Pete, but by the time you've gotten to Purple Belt I'd think that your body would already be 'conditioned' in the linear AND introduced to the circular aspects of Kenpo. Your Brother, John

no argument there, bro... in fact, where i train we start these at blue and green levels. i guess the word reinforce would have been better than introduce.

I’m not saying that neither you nor anyone else can’t execute delayed sword and achieve effective results, not in the slightest. What I did say was that you can’t move your lower body in disharmony with your upper body and achieve the effective results that Delayed Sword leads us to.

again, i couldn't agree more. to do otherwise, regardless of effectiveness in an individual or situation, would NOT be an example of kenpo or the martial arts for that matter.

muscling through a technique was discouraged by my teacher early on, instead let the big muscles do the work! I'm surprised that a senor, the GoldenDragon #7, contradicts this... unless i am misinterpreting the essense of his response... :idunno:

This person has passed your scrutiny through all of the Yellow Belt techniques and other requirements as well as Orange Belt techniques and requirements and has already begun their journey into the Purple Belt material…and now you intend on finally getting them used to some “coordination”?

john, this is where i must disagree. when i reached purple belt i was real cool, knew how to move and could take on the world... now, well dylan put it best "i was so much older then, i'm younger than that now!"

In #4 however you are standing on one foot and simultaneously delivering a punch. How do you stand on one foot and punch and expect to be able to deliver ANY power?

try an adjustment to the written form, and issue the power as your back foot lands and your hips settle... use that whole body unity!

pete.

 

[jeffkyle]

Directional Harmony!!!
Think about it. As you settle back w/the right foot you punch forward with the right hand. Same side of your body, the base & your body weight are moving to the rear WHILE your limb is thrusting forward? NO directional harmony.

I have a video of where Mr. Parker specifically talks about Directional Harmony with coordination set. After watching that video and seeing this statement, I can see where one might think like this...but I also see how Mr. Parker Explained it. From his explanation Directional Harmony is there!

 

[hector]

Hi:
When we are amid an intense rain, to drink water would seem us something useless, but if we were amid the desert, it would be a blessing.

Coordination Set is useful or only a lost of time?.

Kenpo is a very wide system and have many tools to develop our capacities and to train our skills. In my opinion the Coordinación Set is an excellent formative exercise for the children and even for adults with problems in its coordination motor. In cientific studies they are calculated that the children's 5-8% enters they have significant problems with coordination. The males are seven times more than the girls, for what is not a smaller topic. In my experience, the children quickly learns Coordination Set, because the frequent repetition of the same movements makes that the coordination is more and more perfect.

Coordination is a motive quality . In the field of the physical education and especially in the field of the neurophysiology different concepts exist in relation to the coordination.

According to Ernst Idla coordination it is “The ability to make complex movements in a convenient way so that they can be carried out with a minimum of energy."

For Claude Coste the coordination allows to take to end movements that imply to many corporal segments to make a previously represented action, claiming an attention centered in the movement and in the mental representation of its execution. A bad coordination has effects agitators in all the levels of the individuals' activity, leave it opposes to the harmonious acquisition and estructurantes of the automatism.

The specialists of the movements are based on the different classifications and based on these they develop the motive perceptive field. In relation to the Martial Arts we will develop the General and Manual Coordination, concept that arises of Costallt. This author understands for General Coordination to all those movements in that the inferior members interfere (for example: displacements, to run, to jump) and for Dynamic Manual to those movements that are carried out specifically with the superior members.
----------------

My Personal Notes (they are not necessarily the true, alone an option)

*) The Coordination Set 1 is a transition and preparation of movements that we find in the Long 2, with the difference that the first two movements are the reverse of the Set (downward block, looping punch).

*) In the Long 1 we have an outward block and a reverse punch, in the Coordination Set we incorporate the concept of Insert .

*) We identify 2 origin points for the fist, being the first one starting from the block and the second from the hip.

*) The combination punch/kick works in the counter torque and if it not carried out, for the mechanics of the kick, the hip would be rotated, with that which we would have to have an extra time to be able to carry out the reverse final punch and to use the torque.

*) In the long 2 in the final punch fall to the front and in the Set we fall back, that which seems an absurdity but have as objective to become trained to use the punch going back. (It is an important quality developed by boxers)

*) Technics with the mechanics of the Coordination Set 1: THRUSTING SALUTE, DARTING MACE, DOMINATING CIRCLES (takedown)


Greetings to all,
Hector

 

[Touch Of Death]

now, well dylan put it best "i was so much older then, i'm younger than that now!"



try an adjustment to the written form, and issue the power as your back foot lands and your hips settle... use that whole body unity!

pete.

Actualy that isn't the excercise. Just think of this as an insert that doesn't lack all that much power. I thought for sure that was the "Byrds". Did Dylan write that?
sean

 

[pete]

Actualy that isn't the excercise.

hey sean, i'm not gonna force it down anyone's throat, but i don't see that there is a definite method of practicing this exercise... and this is where i found my home.

I thought for sure that was the "Byrds". Did Dylan write that

yep... Byrds did a better job with it (opinion?), but Dylan wrote it.