Co-operation

[now disabled]

Do folks on here think that if there was more co-operation/understanding between all the different Arts and styles and folks could view things from the stand point of having an open mind then less arguments would take place and more open discussion?

I can and have been guilty of that myself and I will admit to that. Reading posts on here has really opened up my mind to different concepts and ideas (ok I have time on my hands lol). It has got me thinking that ok never thought of that or how I could translate that into what I already know or how what I have read makes more sense or could be applied if not easier etc more directly or as part of what I am trying to achieve.

I would also like to make the suggestion that there is a heck of a lot of confusion goes on between arts due to the different terminology used for either the same thing/principle/technique and that cause division. Also adding to that I do feel that could in some cases (not all) there be the lost in translation element as in what we in the west may think it means may not actually be what it means or what we think is only partially what it means. I am sure at times this is the case at times.

I am sure folks will shoot me down over this and that is fine as long as they make a logical and rational argument and not just say "NO WE DO IT THIS WAY AND THAT THE ONLY WAY" or " YOUR ART IS WRONG AND DOESN'T WORK"

It may be a pointless exercise and I may get huge flak but so be it if it opens only a few minds it worth it

 

[hoshin1600]

Welcome to MT.
But seriously, there are some that have been here awhile (years) that try not to get bogged down in narrow minded view points.

This sight has lost quite a few old timers and picked up a good number of new posters. This also brings about a division because of group dynamics. Long term posters here know the unspoken rules of the group and new posters do not. They are not yet "one of us" so they will get more resistance from their posts until they learn and conform to what is acceptable.
I will say that I enjoy and find utility in debate. It pushes me mentally and forces me to logically defend my views. Arguing is different. A debate is done in good faith that an understanding will be the result. An argument is just being disagreeable for its own sake with no attempt for understanding or resolution.

 

[now disabled]

Welcome to MT.
But seriously, there are some that have been here awhile (years) that try not to get bogged down in narrow minded view points.

This sight has lost quite a few old timers and picked up a good number of new posters. This also brings about a division because of group dynamics. Long term posters here know the unspoken rules of the group and new posters do not. They are not yet "one of us" so they will get more resistance from their posts until they learn and conform to what is acceptable.
I will say that I enjoy and find utility in debate. It pushes me mentally and forces me to logically defend my views. Arguing is different. A debate is done in good faith that an understanding will be the result. An argument is just being disagreeable for its own sake with no attempt for understanding or resolution.

Thanks for the welcome

I get your point totally and will take advice on board for the future

 

[pdg]

A debate is done in good faith that an understanding will be the result. An argument is just being disagreeable for its own sake with no attempt for understanding or resolution

That's not strictly true.

You can present an argument and even have an argument without being argumentative.

 

[Balrog]

I think cross-training and sharing ideas is great. My strong suit is Taekwondo. But I know a little about ju-jitsu, aikido, escrima, judo and others. Am I expert at them? No, but the knowledge makes me a better martial artist.

 

[hoshin1600]

That's not strictly true.

You can present an argument and even have an argument without being argumentative.

how ironic is this post

your point is true. i made distinctions between the words for clarification, but only out of convenience.

 

[oftheherd1]

I understand a person liking their art, and thinking it is very good if not the best. Otherwise, why study that art instead of another art that seems better?

But I think it foolish to think that one's own art is the only art with any value. Striking arts that limit themselves in what body areas they will strike, or try to incorporate a grappling technique incompletely learned at a weekend seminar, aren't doing themselves any service. Grappling arts that deny advantages of striking, or learning how to strike properly, aren't doing a service to their students imho.

I get particularly frustrated with those who don't get taught or properly taught a grappling technique, and therefore because they can't make it work, deny its viability.

But this is Martial Talk. Most MA from what I have seen, are Type A personalities. Sometimes that shows up with a stubbornness that borders on disrespect. Say, isn't there a recent thread on respect ...?

 

[pdg]

how ironic is this post

your point is true. i made distinctions between the words for clarification, but only out of convenience.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do folks on here think that if there was more co-operation/understanding between all the different Arts and styles and folks could view things from the stand point of having an open mind then less arguments would take place and more open discussion?

I can and have been guilty of that myself and I will admit to that. Reading posts on here has really opened up my mind to different concepts and ideas (ok I have time on my hands lol). It has got me thinking that ok never thought of that or how I could translate that into what I already know or how what I have read makes more sense or could be applied if not easier etc more directly or as part of what I am trying to achieve.

I would also like to make the suggestion that there is a heck of a lot of confusion goes on between arts due to the different terminology used for either the same thing/principle/technique and that cause division. Also adding to that I do feel that could in some cases (not all) there be the lost in translation element as in what we in the west may think it means may not actually be what it means or what we think is only partially what it means. I am sure at times this is the case at times.

I am sure folks will shoot me down over this and that is fine as long as they make a logical and rational argument and not just say "NO WE DO IT THIS WAY AND THAT THE ONLY WAY" or " YOUR ART IS WRONG AND DOESN'T WORK"

It may be a pointless exercise and I may get huge flak but so be it if it opens only a few minds it worth it

OK, it has to be said...WE DO IT THIS WAY AND THAT IS THE ONLY WAY" AND " YOUR ART IS WRONG AND DOESN'T WORK"

IMO, there use to be more discussion here and less arguing when I first arrived, but arguments still happened. There have been many along the way that came just to argue and IMO a few are still here. But there are still open minded folks here and there are things to read and learn. Benn in my share of arguments here, tend to avoid then these days because it is just not worth the time.

As to lost in translation..... try training Chinese Martial Arts.... all sorts of things are mistranslated, misinterpreted and misunderstood in the west...starting with what Kung Fu and Wushu actually mean.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Welcome to MT.
But seriously, there are some that have been here awhile (years) that try not to get bogged down in narrow minded view points.

This sight has lost quite a few old timers and picked up a good number of new posters. This also brings about a division because of group dynamics. Long term posters here know the unspoken rules of the group and new posters do not. They are not yet "one of us" so they will get more resistance from their posts until they learn and conform to what is acceptable.
I will say that I enjoy and find utility in debate. It pushes me mentally and forces me to logically defend my views. Arguing is different. A debate is done in good faith that an understanding will be the result. An argument is just being disagreeable for its own sake with no attempt for understanding or resolution.

I can think of some posters that have been here for years that 'argue' rather than debate.

 

[Ryan_]

Back when I did Kong Soo Do, my instructor hosted seminars 2-3 times a year with instructors from different styles as well as often telling us that it was okay to practice different styles (and I believe he himself also did several different styles.)

Yes, I believe cooperation between arts is a good thing and if you are in a position where you are able to invite different instructors to seminars, it could be a good idea.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Back when I did Kong Soo Do, my instructor hosted seminars 2-3 times a year with instructors from different styles as well as often telling us that it was okay to practice different styles (and I believe he himself also did several different styles.)

Yes, I believe cooperation between arts is a good thing and if you are in a position where you are able to invite different instructors to seminars, it could be a good idea.

Agreed

Many years ago, when dinosaurs ruled the earth, my first Sifu allowed us to hang out on Saturday afternoons and beat the living daylights out of one another (Spar) and we all came form different background and you can learn a lot that way...like never spar a life long southern mantis guy who is also an ex-marine
But you also learn how your style works outside of your style. If all you ever do is train within your style you might be in for a big surprise the first time you come up against someone doing something different.

 

[pgsmith]

I can think of some posters that have been here for years that 'argue' rather than debate.

No we don't!

 

[marques]

Do folks on here think that if there was more co-operation/understanding between all the different Arts and styles and folks could view things from the stand point of having an open mind then less arguments would take place and more open discussion?

Pros:
- Each art/ist could improve to the next level (concepts, strategies, tactiques...).
- Arts/artists would be more versatile and effective.
- People would understand why things are the way they are, rather than saying the other is wrong.

Cons:
- Things would become more complex and eventually worse than they are (easier to follow/understand only one way/person/subset than infinite ways and possibilities).

Personally, I would like to see more interaction between styles and schools. But it would expose the weaknesses of the artists to the exterior... On the other hand, if they really know their stuff, that wouldn’t be an issue and everyone would evolve faster and further.

MMA has this interaction due to competition between different people from everywhere and contributions from virtually any art. It ‘started’ 20 years ago and it is really different now! How will it be in 20 years? Or BJJ guys training wrestling (including Gracie family); of course it made them better, in more than one sense.

Some sort of (good) interaction between (other) arts would made them better, rather than a worse copy of the last generation... every generation...

 

[JR 137]

I’ll defer words of wisdom to my favorite king. Rodney King.

 

[dvcochran]

Do folks on here think that if there was more co-operation/understanding between all the different Arts and styles and folks could view things from the stand point of having an open mind then less arguments would take place and more open discussion?

I can and have been guilty of that myself and I will admit to that. Reading posts on here has really opened up my mind to different concepts and ideas (ok I have time on my hands lol). It has got me thinking that ok never thought of that or how I could translate that into what I already know or how what I have read makes more sense or could be applied if not easier etc more directly or as part of what I am trying to achieve.

I would also like to make the suggestion that there is a heck of a lot of confusion goes on between arts due to the different terminology used for either the same thing/principle/technique and that cause division. Also adding to that I do feel that could in some cases (not all) there be the lost in translation element as in what we in the west may think it means may not actually be what it means or what we think is only partially what it means. I am sure at times this is the case at times.

I am sure folks will shoot me down over this and that is fine as long as they make a logical and rational argument and not just say "NO WE DO IT THIS WAY AND THAT THE ONLY WAY" or " YOUR ART IS WRONG AND DOESN'T WORK"

It may be a pointless exercise and I may get huge flak but so be it if it opens only a few minds it worth it

Great post. I would certainly be considered a young buck on this site and have already had my share of semantic differences. I am not smart enough to see a way to achieve you goal but it is a very good one. Some of the old timers here understandably have a narrow view of some things. I consider myself old in terms of MA age and try hard to see things from a younger perspective if it makes sense. I will also call someone out of they are off track and I applaud the old timers on the site for doing the same.
The division lines are very old and deeply rooted. Even within most styles there are divisions so good luck on your efforts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

- The long fist system is good to protect the center from outside in.
- The WC system is good to protect the center from inside out.

If you train both, you will have better understanding about MA.

 

[Anarax]

Do folks on here think that if there was more co-operation/understanding between all the different Arts and styles and folks could view things from the stand point of having an open mind then less arguments would take place and more open discussion?

The MA school I go to has multiple classes all taught by different instructors. The school owner/chief instructor is highly respected by all the martial artists and instructors at the school. If one of the Karate students wants to refine some grappling defenses, the bjj students will help them with such(no charge). Same goes for bjj guys wanting to learn or spar with the karate guys.

However, I think many of these exchanges are only possible because that's the environment the school owner encourages. A positive or negative environment is usually set by the instructor and the long-term students tend to be in more alignment with that environment or will shift towards that alignment over time.

Arguments can start for many different reasons, some rational some irrational. Having a closed mind has a lot of drawbacks, but having too open of a mind can be dangerous. Someone having a different approach to generating power is something I'm very open to. However, I'm very skeptical when someone states they can "sense my energy" with their eyes closed and can dodge attacks doing so.

 

[now disabled]

- The long fist system is good to protect the center from outside in.
- The WC system is good to protect the center from inside out.

If you train both, you will have better understanding about MA.

Ok I was more thinking of a broader church than that but none the less it is a fair point

 

[now disabled]

The MA school I go to has multiple classes all taught by different instructors. The school owner/chief instructor is highly respected by all the martial artists and instructors at the school. If one of the Karate students wants to refine some grappling defenses, the bjj students will help them with such(no charge). Same goes for bjj guys wanting to learn or spar with the karate guys.

However, I think many of these exchanges are only possible because that's the environment the school owner encourages. A positive or negative environment is usually set by the instructor and the long-term students tend to be in more alignment with that environment or will shift towards that alignment over time.

Arguments can start for many different reasons, some rational some irrational. Having a closed mind has a lot of drawbacks, but having too open of a mind can be dangerous. Someone having a different approach to generating power is something I'm very open to. However, I'm very skeptical when someone states they can "sense my energy" with their eyes closed and can dodge attacks doing so.

Sounds like your part of a good set up long may that continue

I get your point of sensing energy with eyes closed but some arts do maintain that I am like you skeptical but I will not knock it totally as I look on it that it is maybe me that is not far enough advanced to sense those things.