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Heck that was the first thing I thought of when I read the title!
Co-Ed in the Ring?
- Thread starter Si-Je
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #42
Is weightlifting going to make the most difference in the ring?
Alright, so women's sports don't entertain you. Each to their own.
An Athlete is an athlete. Lucky, your the posterchild for what I was really expecting to get on this topic. And it's not stuff I haven't heard before.
I checked out your wikipedia site, and the track and field website. Neat.
So a woman comes in on the 100 meter .96 seconds after the best guy in the same event. I guess that's pretty huge in relation to sprints.
And the weight lifting world records are about 30-45kg more weight on the men as the womens world olympic records. Neat. Liked the sites.
I've still seen a woman lift as much as a guy her size. Maybe it was a fluke, whatever. Don't care.
Women in MMA fighting men in the ring, or at least in the same organizations, that is the question. UFC WEC, etc. You don't like to watch female athletes, I get it. Your totally not alone in that preference. Thanks for the very predictable feedback. But a fight is a different matter than a weightlifting competition, or track and field. There are more factors that could determine the outcome. More versitility.
But, I guess if it's a sport that completely relys on strength, then us poor women are just screwed. Right? I thought MMA was supposed to be more about technique and being a well rounded fighter. That "weaker" men can defeat a guy their weight class using technique, BJJ, grappling, muy tai, and a whole "arsenol" of technique. Are we hung up on strength as the winning deciding factor of a MMA fight?
Okay, I guess so. Then, yes, women will lose to a man if she has to depend soley on strength. I seemed to have misunderstood what MMA was all about and what it focuses on.
Alright, so women's sports don't entertain you. Each to their own.
An Athlete is an athlete. Lucky, your the posterchild for what I was really expecting to get on this topic. And it's not stuff I haven't heard before.
I checked out your wikipedia site, and the track and field website. Neat.
So a woman comes in on the 100 meter .96 seconds after the best guy in the same event. I guess that's pretty huge in relation to sprints.
And the weight lifting world records are about 30-45kg more weight on the men as the womens world olympic records. Neat. Liked the sites.
I've still seen a woman lift as much as a guy her size. Maybe it was a fluke, whatever. Don't care.
Women in MMA fighting men in the ring, or at least in the same organizations, that is the question. UFC WEC, etc. You don't like to watch female athletes, I get it. Your totally not alone in that preference. Thanks for the very predictable feedback. But a fight is a different matter than a weightlifting competition, or track and field. There are more factors that could determine the outcome. More versitility.
But, I guess if it's a sport that completely relys on strength, then us poor women are just screwed. Right? I thought MMA was supposed to be more about technique and being a well rounded fighter. That "weaker" men can defeat a guy their weight class using technique, BJJ, grappling, muy tai, and a whole "arsenol" of technique. Are we hung up on strength as the winning deciding factor of a MMA fight?
Okay, I guess so. Then, yes, women will lose to a man if she has to depend soley on strength. I seemed to have misunderstood what MMA was all about and what it focuses on.
If, and this is a big IF, it were to happen, there would have to be strict weight classes. Imagine no weight class, and putting a female fighter up against someone the size of Brock Lesnar?
As I said, I highly doubt that it'll ever happen, most likely for the reasons mentioned already....however, I would love to see a womens division. I remember some of the old UFCs when they had their Superfights. It was 1 highlight match. Royce and Ken did one. I think there may have been others. It could be something like that, to at least get a feel from the public, as to how it would go over.
As far as women defending themselves against men in the real world....well, lets not forget that that is who they will be defending themselves against...men. Not likely a woman is going to rape another woman. In any case, a real life situation is very different from a cage match, so yes, with the right training and mindset, I'm sure there are women out there that are pleanty capable of defending themselves against a male attacker.
As I said, I highly doubt that it'll ever happen, most likely for the reasons mentioned already....however, I would love to see a womens division. I remember some of the old UFCs when they had their Superfights. It was 1 highlight match. Royce and Ken did one. I think there may have been others. It could be something like that, to at least get a feel from the public, as to how it would go over.
As far as women defending themselves against men in the real world....well, lets not forget that that is who they will be defending themselves against...men. Not likely a woman is going to rape another woman. In any case, a real life situation is very different from a cage match, so yes, with the right training and mindset, I'm sure there are women out there that are pleanty capable of defending themselves against a male attacker.
LuckyKBoxer
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Is weightlifting going to make the most difference in the ring?
Alright, so women's sports don't entertain you. Each to their own.
An Athlete is an athlete. Lucky, your the posterchild for what I was really expecting to get on this topic. And it's not stuff I haven't heard before.
I checked out your wikipedia site, and the track and field website. Neat.
So a woman comes in on the 100 meter .96 seconds after the best guy in the same event. I guess that's pretty huge in relation to sprints.
And the weight lifting world records are about 30-45kg more weight on the men as the womens world olympic records. Neat. Liked the sites.
I've still seen a woman lift as much as a guy her size. Maybe it was a fluke, whatever. Don't care.
Women in MMA fighting men in the ring, or at least in the same organizations, that is the question. UFC WEC, etc. You don't like to watch female athletes, I get it. Your totally not alone in that preference. Thanks for the very predictable feedback. But a fight is a different matter than a weightlifting competition, or track and field. There are more factors that could determine the outcome. More versitility.
But, I guess if it's a sport that completely relys on strength, then us poor women are just screwed. Right? I thought MMA was supposed to be more about technique and being a well rounded fighter. That "weaker" men can defeat a guy their weight class using technique, BJJ, grappling, muy tai, and a whole "arsenol" of technique. Are we hung up on strength as the winning deciding factor of a MMA fight?
Okay, I guess so. Then, yes, women will lose to a man if she has to depend soley on strength. I seemed to have misunderstood what MMA was all about and what it focuses on.
Ok so this will be my last response unless something new comes up, but apparantly you are looking for people to agree with you regardless of facts. Thats just not going to happen.
Second I never said I don't watch female athletes of women professional sports. Also I never said a woman could not lift as much as a man. What I am saying is at the heights of the professional athlete, women simply are overpowered by men in every single aspect. Even if technique and knowledge are superior the difference in athleticism(strength, speed, agility, dexterity, etc) all around is too much to make up and in a combat sport especially the danger is too high. You can disagree all you want, but you are not using any logic in disagreeing, just passion, and thats fine, but its not correct.
I know the female fighters in this country and a couple of them know a few American female fighters and we are all of the opinion that MMA female fighters are serious athletes who have absolutely no need to fight men to be taken seriously. None of us regard female MMA fighters as unequal to men, the men here also regard female fighters as being equal. You can equate the way people here look at female fighters as a 'weight' group, no one looks down on the bantam or featherweights because they aren't middleweights, no one sneers at the middleweights for not being heavyweights, with women it's exactly the same, they have thier classes just the same as the men have theirs. You don't have featherweights fighting heavyweights because neither group has anything to prove by doing that. Women have nothing to prove by fighting men. The whole point of MMA competition is to fight and win against someone of equal weight and strength as yourself, that's the beauty and fun of MMA. If you want to prove women can fight men go somewhere else.
I recently refereed male professional bouts in the cage, I was the referee not male or female, if the fighters had not obeyed me they knew I'd deal with them, no one, fighters or crowd, doubted that. It wasn't a problem.
I'm sure there's big strong heavy women who can outlift and out fight a small chap but wheres the point in a bigger stronger person fighting a smaller person, we probably all have people in our clubs or schools who can prove women can fight some of the men, some of the men will beat everyone, some won't beat anyone. On MT, it's preaching to the converted saying that women can fight, of course they can. The women I know in MMA as well as most of the men feel they have nothing to prove about fighting, they know they can fight, what they like is the competition of going head to head with an equal opponent... same fight experiences, same weight and same strength, thats the excitement of the game.
Why would a woman want to fight a man or vice versa, there's simply no fun in that and MMA basically is down to enjoyment of the competition, fun and pitting yourself against yourself as much as anything. Can I outhink my opponent, can I outmanouvre them? can I outsmart them, keep my nerve? Thats the fun. To have male v female fights would take away the fun element and become some sort of power struggle and yes I'll repeat it would be embarrassing to the sport to have mismatches, promoters work hard, at least we do, to make good equal matches not farces.
Si-Je what you want isn't to be found in MMA, you want to prove women can take on men, we and MMAers want good clean competitions. We have different agendas and I will always go with what is best for my sport and ultimately women fighters and I'm afraid men v female matches aren't it.
I recently refereed male professional bouts in the cage, I was the referee not male or female, if the fighters had not obeyed me they knew I'd deal with them, no one, fighters or crowd, doubted that. It wasn't a problem.
I'm sure there's big strong heavy women who can outlift and out fight a small chap but wheres the point in a bigger stronger person fighting a smaller person, we probably all have people in our clubs or schools who can prove women can fight some of the men, some of the men will beat everyone, some won't beat anyone. On MT, it's preaching to the converted saying that women can fight, of course they can. The women I know in MMA as well as most of the men feel they have nothing to prove about fighting, they know they can fight, what they like is the competition of going head to head with an equal opponent... same fight experiences, same weight and same strength, thats the excitement of the game.
Why would a woman want to fight a man or vice versa, there's simply no fun in that and MMA basically is down to enjoyment of the competition, fun and pitting yourself against yourself as much as anything. Can I outhink my opponent, can I outmanouvre them? can I outsmart them, keep my nerve? Thats the fun. To have male v female fights would take away the fun element and become some sort of power struggle and yes I'll repeat it would be embarrassing to the sport to have mismatches, promoters work hard, at least we do, to make good equal matches not farces.
Si-Je what you want isn't to be found in MMA, you want to prove women can take on men, we and MMAers want good clean competitions. We have different agendas and I will always go with what is best for my sport and ultimately women fighters and I'm afraid men v female matches aren't it.
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not sure if you ignored my post above or if you might have just missed it. you're a woman who practices a style that works even better if the opponent is larger & stronger, so go set up an mma fight with a man. i know a couple of promoters, if you can't set it up in texas i could help you do it around here, if you don't mind traveling to kansas or missouri. it's a really good opportunity for you; you could prove the effectiveness of WC in the cage, obliterate gender discrimination in MMA, & earn a little money to boot. all good things, imo.
jf
jf
- Thread Starter
- #47
Okay, it was a question and an ideal. Many are not going to agree to even try it, or have already decided it is unreasonable or unattractive to have women and men competing in MMA or even anyother type of sport.
As for Luckyboxer, I did get a little irritated about your comments that female athletes shouldn't be paid as much as men and a few other of your views. I tell you what. I used to work for TSA security in the Airport here a couple of years ago. And since women can't do the physical "work" of a man they shouldn't be paid as much because their events aren't as popular or "fun" to watch.
So with that mindset, since I was placed with a full crew of almost nothing but men chunking checked in baggage to go under the plane then I shouldn't have been paid as much as the men because I can't carry as much weight as them in regards to luggage?
Mind you the minimum weight on this luggage was 40-50lbs., and the majority of it was 50-125lbs. I threw this stuff around all day long, sometimes 12 hour shifts. I "deadlifted" 80lb cumbersome bags from the floor to my chest hight all day long. Must have lifted 50-200 bags a day! (golf bags are totally the worst! have a whole new respect for caddys! lol)
So, since I was doing a man's job so to speak and I'll tell you another thing, those men working with me were twice my size and very often I lifted the same amount of weight if not more often than they did.
So, since I was doing the job of a "man" as well as a man or better and since it's harder for me to do it, then I should get MORE pay. Right? Or they should pay me less because my female form just isn't equipped to handle the workload of a man?
Things that make you go, Hummm?
Great comment MJS on haveing professional women's divisions in the big organizations. I would love to see that too.
I just thought it was an idea to get more fights for women that want to get into MMA, build a fight resume, and that it would make things interesting. I thought things would be more fair between men and women if they were the same size/weight, but have been proven wrong.
I've been thinking about this for the past couple of months and have been debating back and forth in my head on it so I thought I'd just throw it out there, for whatever its worth.
If you don't think MMA would be a good venue for co-ed competition, then maybe another? Point fighting/sparring in TKD tournaments are about as "safe" as you can get. Would it be acceptable there? Well, from the responses I'm getting probably not. Not even in regular athletics.
As for that statement about professional female athletes only being as good as a male in highschool, that I found to be pretty condesending, and untrue. When I was IN high school I performed equally if not better than my guy friends in most sports. Had no problem playing "mens" baseball (I hate softballs their heavier making it harder to hit the ball farther. I just think that's typical *********** "girling down" a sport)
And had no problem striking out almost every guy we played with, even the guys on the baseball team. Had no problem hitting the ball from these guys pitches and running the bases for home runs or double or tripples.
So, no way. Professional female athletes being comparable in equality to a high school male. And I'm teeny, always have been. Didn't stop me from grinding and pulling off popshove-its all day on a skateboard with the guys. Didn't "handycap" me from being able to dribble that soccerball past almost every guy we played with (although soccer isn't as popular down here and folks aren't really good. But neither am I, so we're even there)
Didn't stop me from wrestling with some of the guys on the wrestling team (then I took JJJ and used that against them as well as some "street" stuff) and holding my own pretty good against a kid my age and size. (didn't bother to weigh him.lol!) Hey, I never got pinned, and they really wanted to do that really, really bad.
The list goes on in my "highschool" athletic abilities and comparable "equality" to the ability of a boy my age.
Now when men mature, that's a totally different story. But, don't compare grown professional athlete women to a teenage boy. Seriously condesending.
If folks aren't ready for the idea, that's what I really figured. But, I was still curious, and curious to find out what a MMA fighter really depends on in the ring, and this was the fastest way to find out. Strength.
Great thread, and it's been awesome chatting with you all on this idea. Thanks for your input everyone.
As for Luckyboxer, I did get a little irritated about your comments that female athletes shouldn't be paid as much as men and a few other of your views. I tell you what. I used to work for TSA security in the Airport here a couple of years ago. And since women can't do the physical "work" of a man they shouldn't be paid as much because their events aren't as popular or "fun" to watch.
So with that mindset, since I was placed with a full crew of almost nothing but men chunking checked in baggage to go under the plane then I shouldn't have been paid as much as the men because I can't carry as much weight as them in regards to luggage?
Mind you the minimum weight on this luggage was 40-50lbs., and the majority of it was 50-125lbs. I threw this stuff around all day long, sometimes 12 hour shifts. I "deadlifted" 80lb cumbersome bags from the floor to my chest hight all day long. Must have lifted 50-200 bags a day! (golf bags are totally the worst! have a whole new respect for caddys! lol)
So, since I was doing a man's job so to speak and I'll tell you another thing, those men working with me were twice my size and very often I lifted the same amount of weight if not more often than they did.
So, since I was doing the job of a "man" as well as a man or better and since it's harder for me to do it, then I should get MORE pay. Right? Or they should pay me less because my female form just isn't equipped to handle the workload of a man?
Things that make you go, Hummm?
Great comment MJS on haveing professional women's divisions in the big organizations. I would love to see that too.
I just thought it was an idea to get more fights for women that want to get into MMA, build a fight resume, and that it would make things interesting. I thought things would be more fair between men and women if they were the same size/weight, but have been proven wrong.
I've been thinking about this for the past couple of months and have been debating back and forth in my head on it so I thought I'd just throw it out there, for whatever its worth.
If you don't think MMA would be a good venue for co-ed competition, then maybe another? Point fighting/sparring in TKD tournaments are about as "safe" as you can get. Would it be acceptable there? Well, from the responses I'm getting probably not. Not even in regular athletics.
As for that statement about professional female athletes only being as good as a male in highschool, that I found to be pretty condesending, and untrue. When I was IN high school I performed equally if not better than my guy friends in most sports. Had no problem playing "mens" baseball (I hate softballs their heavier making it harder to hit the ball farther. I just think that's typical *********** "girling down" a sport)
And had no problem striking out almost every guy we played with, even the guys on the baseball team. Had no problem hitting the ball from these guys pitches and running the bases for home runs or double or tripples.
So, no way. Professional female athletes being comparable in equality to a high school male. And I'm teeny, always have been. Didn't stop me from grinding and pulling off popshove-its all day on a skateboard with the guys. Didn't "handycap" me from being able to dribble that soccerball past almost every guy we played with (although soccer isn't as popular down here and folks aren't really good. But neither am I, so we're even there)
Didn't stop me from wrestling with some of the guys on the wrestling team (then I took JJJ and used that against them as well as some "street" stuff) and holding my own pretty good against a kid my age and size. (didn't bother to weigh him.lol!) Hey, I never got pinned, and they really wanted to do that really, really bad.
The list goes on in my "highschool" athletic abilities and comparable "equality" to the ability of a boy my age.
Now when men mature, that's a totally different story. But, don't compare grown professional athlete women to a teenage boy. Seriously condesending.
If folks aren't ready for the idea, that's what I really figured. But, I was still curious, and curious to find out what a MMA fighter really depends on in the ring, and this was the fastest way to find out. Strength.
Great thread, and it's been awesome chatting with you all on this idea. Thanks for your input everyone.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have been reading through this and I got to tell you I think the whole topic is a bit whacky. You are not going to get co-ed in the ring and I truly do not believe it is discrimination, sexism or any other topic to cause great debate, arguing and strife, it is just what is. As already mentioned there are a multitude of other sports that are not coed and those would need to go coed first. Also what is wrong with a woman being taken seriously as a martial artists, all on her own, in competition with other woman and not having to be compared to a man or base her legitimacy on that of a man.
But with that said I got to tell you after over 30 years of MA I would not climb in the ring with this woman and I seriously outweigh her. And it has nothing to do with any sort of macho attitude, I gained an awful lot of respect for Aikido, that I did not have prior, from a woman about half my size that was part of a sparing group I was in that slammed me to the floor. And I have to tell you I felt about it at the time the same way I do now… DAMN!!! That was cool. Not climbing into the ring with the woman the link goes to has a heck of a lot more to do with self-preservation.
But with that said I got to tell you after over 30 years of MA I would not climb in the ring with this woman and I seriously outweigh her. And it has nothing to do with any sort of macho attitude, I gained an awful lot of respect for Aikido, that I did not have prior, from a woman about half my size that was part of a sparing group I was in that slammed me to the floor. And I have to tell you I felt about it at the time the same way I do now… DAMN!!! That was cool. Not climbing into the ring with the woman the link goes to has a heck of a lot more to do with self-preservation.
LuckyKBoxer
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You just don't get it do you?
first off, professional women athletes do not draw as many spectators, audiences, income to their respective sports as men do, thats not me being a chauvinist, thats just a fact, and its not even close. Because of this fact there is no way that a female in the WNBA for example is going to get a 100 million dollar deal. Now, if the circumstances were reversed and the wnba was drawing more money in then the nba then I would say that they deserve to be paid more. Its simple as that. As far as your job lugging luggage, thats not a mans job, its a hard working job, and more power to you for doing it. If you are able to hang with the rest of the workers and do the same job, then you deserve the same pay. It has nothing to do with men and women. Thats ridiculous and your just trying to draw me into saying something chauvenistic. Its ridiculous.
second, as far as the top female athletes go, I compare them to the top high school athletes, and if you look at the numbers its not only a fair comparison, but in most cases the high school men are better athletes across the board. Get upset all you want, its a fact, its undeniable, no matter how much you dislike it. I have no reason to disbelieve you when you make it seem that you were the star athlete of your high school. That says nothing about the level of the men at your high school. There are thousands of high schools in the US, millions of athletes. Take the best of the best and they make it to collegiate sports, take the best of those and they make it to Pro Sports. I would bet money on almost any all american high school mens sports team against virtually any professional womens team, there is no comparison, please stop with condescending comments... I am not being a jerk here, I am stating facts that are open to all to view, please view them and show me where I am wrong.
Ronin74
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I'm sure in quite a few MMA gyms, males and females have had sparring sessions with each other, so I'm going to assume that this whole thread is directed at males and females competing with each other on an amature or professional level.
As for my personal take, I honestly don't care. Fights are for fighters, and causes are for martyrs.
Now as for the topic, here's the conundrum I'm seeing, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
From your previous posts, it sounds like you're trying to make the statement that female fighters are just as capable as male fighters. Perhaps the perceived "strengths" and "weaknesses" will differ between genders (and definitely on an individual basis), but in essesnce, they're all fighters, and as such should be allowed to compete with each other. Again, if this isn't what you meant, please clarify.
In regards to your statement, if the woman were to lose, but still receive an ovation for trying, then wouldn't that negate the idea that male and female fighters have some equality?
Taking gender out of the issue, if one fighter lost to another fighter, should the losing fighter be recognized as something special, or should they just chalk it up as a loss? As for the fighter who won, were they supposed to serve as a stepping-stone of some sort?
As for my personal take, I honestly don't care. Fights are for fighters, and causes are for martyrs.
Now as for the topic, here's the conundrum I'm seeing, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
From your previous posts, it sounds like you're trying to make the statement that female fighters are just as capable as male fighters. Perhaps the perceived "strengths" and "weaknesses" will differ between genders (and definitely on an individual basis), but in essesnce, they're all fighters, and as such should be allowed to compete with each other. Again, if this isn't what you meant, please clarify.
Now it's in that statement where I'm a little lost. If females and males were to compete with each other in the ring, why would either fighter be perceived as being a "hero"? Assuming that an understanding was met that they were both equal and capable fighters, what accolade would stand to be earned from this fight? Perhaps if this was a drag-out fight that went the distance and pushed both fighters to their limits, then I could see either fighter receiving recognition. Beyond that though, what claim is there for the loser?
In regards to your statement, if the woman were to lose, but still receive an ovation for trying, then wouldn't that negate the idea that male and female fighters have some equality?
Taking gender out of the issue, if one fighter lost to another fighter, should the losing fighter be recognized as something special, or should they just chalk it up as a loss? As for the fighter who won, were they supposed to serve as a stepping-stone of some sort?
What on earth is the point of fighting in a competition if you don't have a chance of winning?
I think what is getting mixed up here is what is the point of MMA. It's not self defence, it's not something these days you use to prove your style is better than someone elses, it is purely a competition to enable fighters as I said of equal strength and weight to compete against each other, to stretch themselves if you like. To find out what they are made of might be another description. We've gone over this in other threads mostly the SD ones, yes MMA is full contact so perhaps it's the closest some can get to actual street fighting and to be able to test themselves and some of their techniques but it remains a competition.
In horse racing, my daughters sport, you have mares and stallions competing against each other, sometimes the mares win sometimes the stallions, sometimes the geldings win. They may have female jockeys on board or males but the horses are all the same breed, thoroughbreds, they are the same size to within a couple of inches and the same strength but what they don't have is Shetland ponies, Shire horses or polo ponies all competing against them. It has to be a fair race, the other breeds can all race against their own types but you can't mix it up, it's not a competition then.
The MMA ring/cage is not the place to find out if your self defence theories and training works. It's not sexist to have separate divisions for men and women, I don't see men and women competing against each other in Judo competions or TKD in the Olympics, the only sport I have seen men and women compete equally as I said is in the equestion sports, ie showjumping where the women earn exactly the same as the men. The prize money is for the winner regardless of the sex of the rider or horse. It doesn't follow though that men and women have to compete against each other in fighting sports. I will reiterate time and time again that the sport of MMA is about competing and hopefully beating your equal in strength and size, that doesn't mean strength is what you need to win in MMA at all. to miss the ppint of MMA and then think I'm being reactionary and scared of being embarrassed is nonsense. Someone mentioned Gina Careno in another thread, there's been a lot of controversy over her fights because she's weighed in over weight in every one, why do you think people are complaining about that? It's because the fights are considered fair if both fighters weigh the same, it shows you that the point of MMA fights is to fight someone the same weight and strength as yourself. Incidentally the arguments about Gina's weight were taken very seriously by MMA fans, with people taking sides pro and against in sober arguments not sexist ones. This shows I think that most MMA fans will discuss female fighters exactly the way they discuss male ones. No one said oh it's just women, it doesn't matter. Gina, and the other female fighters, have supporters not just because they are easy on the eye but because they can also fight. the attractiveness might be the first pull in but the fans stay because the girls can fight.
You will not attract more women into the sport by matching them against men, women want what they can get in other sports, fair and equal opposition. They want to be taken seriously in their chosen sport, matching them up aginst men does nothing for either sex or the sport.
Women don't have to prove themselves all the time by comparing themselves to men, that smacks of insecurity. I am what I am and I'm damn proud of it. I'm not second class to men nor are they second class to me. Vive la difference!
I think what is getting mixed up here is what is the point of MMA. It's not self defence, it's not something these days you use to prove your style is better than someone elses, it is purely a competition to enable fighters as I said of equal strength and weight to compete against each other, to stretch themselves if you like. To find out what they are made of might be another description. We've gone over this in other threads mostly the SD ones, yes MMA is full contact so perhaps it's the closest some can get to actual street fighting and to be able to test themselves and some of their techniques but it remains a competition.
In horse racing, my daughters sport, you have mares and stallions competing against each other, sometimes the mares win sometimes the stallions, sometimes the geldings win. They may have female jockeys on board or males but the horses are all the same breed, thoroughbreds, they are the same size to within a couple of inches and the same strength but what they don't have is Shetland ponies, Shire horses or polo ponies all competing against them. It has to be a fair race, the other breeds can all race against their own types but you can't mix it up, it's not a competition then.
The MMA ring/cage is not the place to find out if your self defence theories and training works. It's not sexist to have separate divisions for men and women, I don't see men and women competing against each other in Judo competions or TKD in the Olympics, the only sport I have seen men and women compete equally as I said is in the equestion sports, ie showjumping where the women earn exactly the same as the men. The prize money is for the winner regardless of the sex of the rider or horse. It doesn't follow though that men and women have to compete against each other in fighting sports. I will reiterate time and time again that the sport of MMA is about competing and hopefully beating your equal in strength and size, that doesn't mean strength is what you need to win in MMA at all. to miss the ppint of MMA and then think I'm being reactionary and scared of being embarrassed is nonsense. Someone mentioned Gina Careno in another thread, there's been a lot of controversy over her fights because she's weighed in over weight in every one, why do you think people are complaining about that? It's because the fights are considered fair if both fighters weigh the same, it shows you that the point of MMA fights is to fight someone the same weight and strength as yourself. Incidentally the arguments about Gina's weight were taken very seriously by MMA fans, with people taking sides pro and against in sober arguments not sexist ones. This shows I think that most MMA fans will discuss female fighters exactly the way they discuss male ones. No one said oh it's just women, it doesn't matter. Gina, and the other female fighters, have supporters not just because they are easy on the eye but because they can also fight. the attractiveness might be the first pull in but the fans stay because the girls can fight.
You will not attract more women into the sport by matching them against men, women want what they can get in other sports, fair and equal opposition. They want to be taken seriously in their chosen sport, matching them up aginst men does nothing for either sex or the sport.
Women don't have to prove themselves all the time by comparing themselves to men, that smacks of insecurity. I am what I am and I'm damn proud of it. I'm not second class to men nor are they second class to me. Vive la difference!
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
Si-Je, I have to ask a question here. Have you yourself trained in an MMA cub or competed in an MMA competition before?
Ronin74
Brown Belt
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 434
- Reaction score
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Couldn't have said it any clearer. If anything, I see it as making men out to be an obstacle to overcome in sports, and the only time you'll ever see a mixed-gender match-up would be in pro wrestling, which many MMA promoters try to steer clear of. From as early as UFC 1 to the present, MMA has grown by leaps to earn it's place as a legitimate sport, and the last thing promoters would want is for people to see it as just like wrestling.
Strength is not "the thing" an MMA fighter needs to win in the ring/cage.
An MMA fighter needs stamina, intelligence, good techniques, courage, patience, cunning, strategy, strength, fitness, ring/cage awareness, good corner people, a good coach, supportive team mates and an open mind.
If you want to know what MMA is or what makes a good MMA fighter ....ask.
An MMA fighter needs stamina, intelligence, good techniques, courage, patience, cunning, strategy, strength, fitness, ring/cage awareness, good corner people, a good coach, supportive team mates and an open mind.
If you want to know what MMA is or what makes a good MMA fighter ....ask.
There will never be co-ed fights in any MMA event. Look at every other sport on a professional level. There has been and will always be seperate leagues for men and women to compete against their same gender.
I understand the argument many of you are trying to make but it will never happen. Men hitting women even if it is in a sanctioned event for public entertainment will never be allowed.
I understand the argument many of you are trying to make but it will never happen. Men hitting women even if it is in a sanctioned event for public entertainment will never be allowed.
I had 2 judo green belts. A man and a woman. Both same weight, close to same height etc. The woman would out technique the guy like nobodies business. However, if and when she lost it is because she got out muscled.
However when she competed against other women she destroyed them. I have always enjoyed training with women in class settings. Like I said before "If a woman can figure out how to win competitively then I want to learn how she did it."
However when she competed against other women she destroyed them. I have always enjoyed training with women in class settings. Like I said before "If a woman can figure out how to win competitively then I want to learn how she did it."
seninoniwashi
Green Belt
I dont mean to offend anybody but Im sure this will offend :viking1:,
When I was in high school I attempted wrestling and got a bit good at it. Well, all it took was a girl with the same attitude to ruin it. She wanted to be a guy and somehow was let into the team because she put up enough of a fuss. All the guys had a REAL hard time wrestling her because it just felt instinctively wrong. Our women arent there to choke and beat on, theyre there to protect - thats ingrained in us as humans. Women are our partners, not our enemies. The gal that joined the team won a lot of matches because the guys were nervous and couldnt put 100% toward them as they could a man. Because of this many others and myself quite and found something else to do. It was just uncomfortable.
No matter how far we come with women rights and equality which really has noting to do with this subject at all when it really comes down to it, deep down inside most guys that gap will never be traversed, no matter how hard they try.
When I was in high school I attempted wrestling and got a bit good at it. Well, all it took was a girl with the same attitude to ruin it. She wanted to be a guy and somehow was let into the team because she put up enough of a fuss. All the guys had a REAL hard time wrestling her because it just felt instinctively wrong. Our women arent there to choke and beat on, theyre there to protect - thats ingrained in us as humans. Women are our partners, not our enemies. The gal that joined the team won a lot of matches because the guys were nervous and couldnt put 100% toward them as they could a man. Because of this many others and myself quite and found something else to do. It was just uncomfortable.
No matter how far we come with women rights and equality which really has noting to do with this subject at all when it really comes down to it, deep down inside most guys that gap will never be traversed, no matter how hard they try.
Your post is not offensive it just misses the whole point of MMA competitions, which is of equally matched competitors.
Most martial artists have no problem sparring or grappling with women, that's not the point here.
I think actually I'm just talking to people who have no idea what MMA is and are just jumping on the male v female thing which was something I was trying to avoid myself as it clouds the issue.
LuckyKBoxer
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2008
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- 1,390
- Reaction score
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This is exactly the case.
Female MMA is a sport in itself, I know no male fighter or coach that disrepects female fighters simply because they kno what it takes to get in the ring/cage. This idea that females are second class is nonsense.
Here's the rankings for international female fighters and the person who complied these says it's not complete yet as shes still waiting for results from shows. These are females who fight under professional rules, serious fighters!
TOP 10 FIGHTERS APPEAR IN BLUE (in red UK and Eire fighters)
105lbs
Lisa Ward 14-5-0 (FFF Flyweight Champion)
Miku Matsumoto 19-4-0 (DEEP Champion 105lbs)
Hisae Watanabe 19-6-0
Satako Shinashi 29-2-2 (DEEP Champion 97lbs)
Su Hi Ham 3-3-0
Mai Mai 8-4-0
Kyoko Takabayashi 8-3-0
Saori Ishioka 7-3-0
Yasuko Tamada 9-4-3
Misaki Takimoto 9-10-4
Masako Yoshida 15-14-5
Naoko Ohmuro 8-7-3
Ayumi �Edge� Saito 8-5-0
Eri Kaneya 6-2-1
Fukuko Hamada 4-3-0
Madoka Ebihara 2-1-0
Sachiko Yamamoto 5-3-1
Kayo Nagayasu 7-6-2
Maho Muranami 4-5-2
Davina Maciel 2-1-0
Taeko Nagamine 2-3-0
Yasuko Mogi 4-3-0
Yoko Yamada 5-1-0
Yukiko Seki 4-14-0
Diane Berry 4-0-0 (Cage Gladiators Champion)
Mamiko Mizoguchi 2-3-1
Lisa Newton 2-3-0
Kazumi Kaneko 2-6-0
Kikuyo Ishikawa 1-0-0
115lbs
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0
Yuka Tsuji 21-1-0
Michelli Tavares 7-2-0
Lisa Higo 4-0-0 (GFight Champion, Total Combat UK Champion)
Maiko Ossan Ohkada 12-5-0
Angela Magana 6-3-0 (FCF Bantamweight Champion)
Jessica Pene 5-0-0 (RMBB Champion)
Jessica Aguilar 5-3-0
Lynn Alvarez 4-1-0
Nicdali Calanoc 5-2-0 (FCF Featherweight Champion)
Alicia Gumm 2-1-0
Michelle Watterson 5-2-0
Thricia Poovey 7-6-0
Van Do 3-1-0
Mandy Stewart 2-2-0
Hajime 3-1-0
Wendy Rodriguez 1-0-0
Heather Basquil 1-2-0
Brandy Nerney 1-1-0
Elena Reid 2-0-0
Shawn Tamaribuchi 1-4-0
Lacey Schuckman 2-1-0
Angelica Chavez 2-0-0
Valerie Coolbaugh 1-0-0
Meenal Prasad 1-0-0
Mike Nagano 1-2-0
Paulina Ramirez 1-0-0
Mariah Reed 1-1-0
Iman Achhal 1-0-0
Meghan Wright 1-0-0
Tessa Simpson 1-0-0
125lbs
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0
Rosi Sexton 9-1-0 (Cage Warriors Champion)
Carina Damm 10-3-0
Rin Nakai 5-0-0
Aisling Daly 7-0-0
Kanako Takashita 5-1-0
Kinuka Sasaki 3-6-1
Kazue Matake 3-2-0
Windy Tomimi 12-9-0
Emi Fujino 8-2-0
Sally Krumdiack 5-2-0
Sophie Bagherdai 4-1-0
Tevi Say 3-2-1
Nadia Van Der Vel 3-5-1
Patti Lee 2-2-0
Emi Tomimatsu 2-4-0
Madoka Ebihara 3-1-0
Akiko Naito 4-7-0
Cindy Hales 2-1-0
Ana Maria 2-2-0
Michelle Ould 2-2-0
Amanda Nunes 2-1-0
April Cautino 1-0-0?
Jen Babcock 3-2-0
Crystal Harris 2-3-0
Paula Meyers 2-0-0
Anna Mayne 3-0-0
Inga Sheroziya 1-0-0
Jamie Lynn 1-3-0
Tammie Schneider 2-6-0
Chelsea Colarelli 2-2-0
Anthea Morrison 1-0-0
Shawny Young 1-0-0
Matsumi Kasai 1-0-0
Brandi Hainey 1-1-0
Zoila Frausto 1-0-0
135lbs
Tara La Rosa 17-1-0
Shayna Bazler 19-5-0
Roxanne Modaferri 13-4-0 (FFF LW Champion IFC World MW Champ)
Takayo Hashi 12-1-0
Amanda Buckner 11-5-1 (IFC US MW Champion)
Vanessa Porto 8-3-0
Hitomi Akano 14-5-0
Tonya Evinger 7-3-0
Sara Schneider 4-2-0
Sarah Kaufman 7-0-0
Julie Kedzie 8-8-0
Ginelle Marquez-Lee 8-7-1
Molly Helsel 7-7-1
Adrianna Jenkins 11-2-0
Tama Chan 16-14-0
Liz Posenor 5-3-1
Debi Purcell 4-2-0
Jennifer Tate 5-1-0
Kaitlin Young 4-2-0 (Hook n Shoot Champion)
Alexis Davis 6-1-0
Hari 5-7-0
Miesha Tate 5-1-0
Jan Finney 4-6-0
Julia Berezikova 3-3-0
Kellyn Huehn 1-4-0
Majanka Lathouwers 3-2-0
Revelina Berto 3-0-0
Jessica Bednark 3-2-0
Sybil Starr 1-1-0
Angela Hayes 1-5-0
Kate Alendal 3-3-0
Melanie Lacroix 3-1-0
Sarah Wilson 3-0-0
Chevelle Hallback 1-1-0
Liz Carriero 3-4-0
Melissa Vasquez 4-6-0
Kinuka Sasaki 2-6-0
Dina Van Den Hooven 2-1-0
Amanda Bice 2-1-0
Cat Albert 2-0-0
Valerie LeTourneau 2-2-0
Angela Samaro 1-1-0
Ashley Sanchez 1-2-0
Myriem El Banouti 2-1-0
Kim Rose 1-0-0
Kate Roy 1-1-0
Suzi Smith 1-2-0
Shizuka Sugiyama 2-0-0
Shiho 1-1-0
Kim Couture 1-1-0
Mitzi Marry 1-0-0
Philoman Zeltz 1-0-0
145lbs
Gina Carano 7-0-0
Kelly Kobald 15-3-1
Christian Cyborg 6-0-0
Elaina Maxwell 2-3-0
Megumi Yabushita 14-15-0
Karen Williams 3-0-0
Christine Taetsch 3-2-0
Emily Thompson 3-0-0
Michelle Maher 1-2-0
Avery Vilche 1-1-0
Tonya Perry 1-1-0
Margaux La Trobe 1-0-0
Tamara Parks 1-1-0
Gina Mazany 2-0-0
Megan Williams 1-0-0
155lbs
Erin Toughill 9-2-1
Cindy Dandois 1-0-0
Marloes Coenen 16-3-0
Nicole Maldonado 1-1-0
Michelle Farrow 6-2-0
Magdalena Jarecka 2-2-0
Melissa Sherwood 2-0-0 (IFC World LHW Champion)
Shawn Young 1-0-0 (Warriors Challenge LHW Champion)
Sarah Renaud 1-2-0
Hannah Doak 1-2-0
165lbs
Yoko Takahashi 13-10-0
Jen Case 4-1-0 (FFF Middleweight Champion)
Atsuko Emoto 2-2-0
Taja Luthje 1-0-0
Danielle West 1-2-0
185lbs
Michiko Takeda 3-3-1
+185lbs
Lana Stefanac 6-0-0 (FFF Heavyweight Champion)
Hiroko 6-1-0
Mayumi Aoki 2-6-0
Here's the rankings for international female fighters and the person who complied these says it's not complete yet as shes still waiting for results from shows. These are females who fight under professional rules, serious fighters!
TOP 10 FIGHTERS APPEAR IN BLUE (in red UK and Eire fighters)
105lbs
Lisa Ward 14-5-0 (FFF Flyweight Champion)
Miku Matsumoto 19-4-0 (DEEP Champion 105lbs)
Hisae Watanabe 19-6-0
Satako Shinashi 29-2-2 (DEEP Champion 97lbs)
Su Hi Ham 3-3-0
Mai Mai 8-4-0
Kyoko Takabayashi 8-3-0
Saori Ishioka 7-3-0
Yasuko Tamada 9-4-3
Misaki Takimoto 9-10-4
Masako Yoshida 15-14-5
Naoko Ohmuro 8-7-3
Ayumi �Edge� Saito 8-5-0
Eri Kaneya 6-2-1
Fukuko Hamada 4-3-0
Madoka Ebihara 2-1-0
Sachiko Yamamoto 5-3-1
Kayo Nagayasu 7-6-2
Maho Muranami 4-5-2
Davina Maciel 2-1-0
Taeko Nagamine 2-3-0
Yasuko Mogi 4-3-0
Yoko Yamada 5-1-0
Yukiko Seki 4-14-0
Diane Berry 4-0-0 (Cage Gladiators Champion)
Mamiko Mizoguchi 2-3-1
Lisa Newton 2-3-0
Kazumi Kaneko 2-6-0
Kikuyo Ishikawa 1-0-0
115lbs
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0
Yuka Tsuji 21-1-0
Michelli Tavares 7-2-0
Lisa Higo 4-0-0 (GFight Champion, Total Combat UK Champion)
Maiko Ossan Ohkada 12-5-0
Angela Magana 6-3-0 (FCF Bantamweight Champion)
Jessica Pene 5-0-0 (RMBB Champion)
Jessica Aguilar 5-3-0
Lynn Alvarez 4-1-0
Nicdali Calanoc 5-2-0 (FCF Featherweight Champion)
Alicia Gumm 2-1-0
Michelle Watterson 5-2-0
Thricia Poovey 7-6-0
Van Do 3-1-0
Mandy Stewart 2-2-0
Hajime 3-1-0
Wendy Rodriguez 1-0-0
Heather Basquil 1-2-0
Brandy Nerney 1-1-0
Elena Reid 2-0-0
Shawn Tamaribuchi 1-4-0
Lacey Schuckman 2-1-0
Angelica Chavez 2-0-0
Valerie Coolbaugh 1-0-0
Meenal Prasad 1-0-0
Mike Nagano 1-2-0
Paulina Ramirez 1-0-0
Mariah Reed 1-1-0
Iman Achhal 1-0-0
Meghan Wright 1-0-0
Tessa Simpson 1-0-0
125lbs
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0
Rosi Sexton 9-1-0 (Cage Warriors Champion)
Carina Damm 10-3-0
Rin Nakai 5-0-0
Aisling Daly 7-0-0
Kanako Takashita 5-1-0
Kinuka Sasaki 3-6-1
Kazue Matake 3-2-0
Windy Tomimi 12-9-0
Emi Fujino 8-2-0
Sally Krumdiack 5-2-0
Sophie Bagherdai 4-1-0
Tevi Say 3-2-1
Nadia Van Der Vel 3-5-1
Patti Lee 2-2-0
Emi Tomimatsu 2-4-0
Madoka Ebihara 3-1-0
Akiko Naito 4-7-0
Cindy Hales 2-1-0
Ana Maria 2-2-0
Michelle Ould 2-2-0
Amanda Nunes 2-1-0
April Cautino 1-0-0?
Jen Babcock 3-2-0
Crystal Harris 2-3-0
Paula Meyers 2-0-0
Anna Mayne 3-0-0
Inga Sheroziya 1-0-0
Jamie Lynn 1-3-0
Tammie Schneider 2-6-0
Chelsea Colarelli 2-2-0
Anthea Morrison 1-0-0
Shawny Young 1-0-0
Matsumi Kasai 1-0-0
Brandi Hainey 1-1-0
Zoila Frausto 1-0-0
135lbs
Tara La Rosa 17-1-0
Shayna Bazler 19-5-0
Roxanne Modaferri 13-4-0 (FFF LW Champion IFC World MW Champ)
Takayo Hashi 12-1-0
Amanda Buckner 11-5-1 (IFC US MW Champion)
Vanessa Porto 8-3-0
Hitomi Akano 14-5-0
Tonya Evinger 7-3-0
Sara Schneider 4-2-0
Sarah Kaufman 7-0-0
Julie Kedzie 8-8-0
Ginelle Marquez-Lee 8-7-1
Molly Helsel 7-7-1
Adrianna Jenkins 11-2-0
Tama Chan 16-14-0
Liz Posenor 5-3-1
Debi Purcell 4-2-0
Jennifer Tate 5-1-0
Kaitlin Young 4-2-0 (Hook n Shoot Champion)
Alexis Davis 6-1-0
Hari 5-7-0
Miesha Tate 5-1-0
Jan Finney 4-6-0
Julia Berezikova 3-3-0
Kellyn Huehn 1-4-0
Majanka Lathouwers 3-2-0
Revelina Berto 3-0-0
Jessica Bednark 3-2-0
Sybil Starr 1-1-0
Angela Hayes 1-5-0
Kate Alendal 3-3-0
Melanie Lacroix 3-1-0
Sarah Wilson 3-0-0
Chevelle Hallback 1-1-0
Liz Carriero 3-4-0
Melissa Vasquez 4-6-0
Kinuka Sasaki 2-6-0
Dina Van Den Hooven 2-1-0
Amanda Bice 2-1-0
Cat Albert 2-0-0
Valerie LeTourneau 2-2-0
Angela Samaro 1-1-0
Ashley Sanchez 1-2-0
Myriem El Banouti 2-1-0
Kim Rose 1-0-0
Kate Roy 1-1-0
Suzi Smith 1-2-0
Shizuka Sugiyama 2-0-0
Shiho 1-1-0
Kim Couture 1-1-0
Mitzi Marry 1-0-0
Philoman Zeltz 1-0-0
145lbs
Gina Carano 7-0-0
Kelly Kobald 15-3-1
Christian Cyborg 6-0-0
Elaina Maxwell 2-3-0
Megumi Yabushita 14-15-0
Karen Williams 3-0-0
Christine Taetsch 3-2-0
Emily Thompson 3-0-0
Michelle Maher 1-2-0
Avery Vilche 1-1-0
Tonya Perry 1-1-0
Margaux La Trobe 1-0-0
Tamara Parks 1-1-0
Gina Mazany 2-0-0
Megan Williams 1-0-0
155lbs
Erin Toughill 9-2-1
Cindy Dandois 1-0-0
Marloes Coenen 16-3-0
Nicole Maldonado 1-1-0
Michelle Farrow 6-2-0
Magdalena Jarecka 2-2-0
Melissa Sherwood 2-0-0 (IFC World LHW Champion)
Shawn Young 1-0-0 (Warriors Challenge LHW Champion)
Sarah Renaud 1-2-0
Hannah Doak 1-2-0
165lbs
Yoko Takahashi 13-10-0
Jen Case 4-1-0 (FFF Middleweight Champion)
Atsuko Emoto 2-2-0
Taja Luthje 1-0-0
Danielle West 1-2-0
185lbs
Michiko Takeda 3-3-1
+185lbs
Lana Stefanac 6-0-0 (FFF Heavyweight Champion)
Hiroko 6-1-0
Mayumi Aoki 2-6-0
