Climate Change Discussion/ split from What is the purpose of a Taekwondo form?

Gerry Seymour

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Agree, but the lawmakers are a part of government. Lobbyist are the insidious misinformation givers used by government too often as facts. Another flaw in our system that has to be fixed.
I have been saying this whole time there may be too little understanding to start making broad range decisions.
You seem to be conflating two sides of the issue. There's pretty strong understanding of what is happening (global warming with a human-caused element), and conceptually what needs to happen (reduce emission of greenhouse gasses to reduce the human element). How that gets done is not a single, sweeping solution. It's probably several thousand solutions - some large and some small. We know enough to get started, while we figure out the rest. Simple things like restricting emissions goes a long way - and some of that simply requires government, because individual consumers drive businesses to do things that are counter to our collective needs.

For that latter point, fuel economy is an easy example. We can (and do) make cars that get more than 40MPG. Many people prefer to buy vehicles that get 20 or less. For some of those people, that's actually a proper decision (can't haul construction goods in a hatchback). But I know several couples with a single child or no children who choose enormous cars (some of which are just plain more fun to own). Why? It's a cycle. Consumers like SUV's, so manufacturers make them. They've made them, so they market them. They want to sell more, so they market them as family vehicles, sport vehicles, etc. Now more consumers want them. Now, increase CAFE standards (for those outside the US, that's regulated requirements that include fuel economy requirements for new vehicles), and manufacturers make more fuel-efficient cars. Since they've made more of them, they want to sell them, so they market them. Turns out, what's marketed well, sells better, which can help contribute to the overall solution.

Nobody I'm aware of is asking for a single, sweeping reform that fixes everything at once. What we want is progress in the right direction, rather than regression toward the practices that led to the current situation.
 

Flying Crane

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I do not know what "bumping a post up is". Enlighten me.
Bringing it back to the top of the discussion so it isn’t forgotten.

I would definitely like to see your answers to the questions in those two posts.
 
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Flying Crane

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Hmm, hmm, who is the current conservative POTUS? Likewise conservatives are here to stay, clearly in much greater numbers.
You obviously do not know that socialism is a problem. Study a little. You saying, anything, in an earlier post means very little.

I have been discussing the bigger picture of the issue. You refuse to get past crying about how it is happening to offer anything in the way of a solution. I have been trying to explain how complex the solution is. If in fact there is one than humans can mitigate. I have more faith in mother nature blowing another big volcano or meteor strike.
All you’ve done is throw up distractions and smokescreens.
 

dvcochran

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You seem to be conflating two sides of the issue. There's pretty strong understanding of what is happening (global warming with a human-caused element), and conceptually what needs to happen (reduce emission of greenhouse gasses to reduce the human element). How that gets done is not a single, sweeping solution. It's probably several thousand solutions - some large and some small. We know enough to get started, while we figure out the rest. Simple things like restricting emissions goes a long way - and some of that simply requires government, because individual consumers drive businesses to do things that are counter to our collective needs.

For that latter point, fuel economy is an easy example. We can (and do) make cars that get more than 40MPG. Many people prefer to buy vehicles that get 20 or less. For some of those people, that's actually a proper decision (can't haul construction goods in a hatchback). But I know several couples with a single child or no children who choose enormous cars (some of which are just plain more fun to own). Why? It's a cycle. Consumers like SUV's, so manufacturers make them. They've made them, so they market them. They want to sell more, so they market them as family vehicles, sport vehicles, etc. Now more consumers want them. Now, increase CAFE standards (for those outside the US, that's regulated requirements that include fuel economy requirements for new vehicles), and manufacturers make more fuel-efficient cars. Since they've made more of them, they want to sell them, so they market them. Turns out, what's marketed well, sells better, which can help contribute to the overall solution.

Nobody I'm aware of is asking for a single, sweeping reform that fixes everything at once. What we want is progress in the right direction, rather than regression toward the practices that led to the current situation.
Finally, someone talks about solutions. Good post.
 

dvcochran

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You seem to be having an entirely different discussion than I am, DV. Several responses you've given don't seem to be related to the post you quote. You referred to taming nature, and I commented that it wasn't taming nature. In response you referred to Katrina, and I asked how that was related. So you posted a link explaining wave energy tech as if I'd asked what it was. So I asked again what that had to do with taming nature or hurricanes. Only then did you get around to explaining that you were saying the equipment would be at risk, as if that was something that wouldn't have been thought of.

Condescension (cookies on the low shelf) isn't pushing back. You can do better.
With your aloof replies one could only assume you did not understand much about the tech. It is rather obvious but your responses did seem that way.
 

Dirty Dog

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Consumers like SUV's, so manufacturers make them.

Mmmmmm... no, I don't think so.
Government standards for fuel economy and safety were drastically increased, but since trucks, at the time, were considered work vehicles, many of the rules didn't apply, or were relaxed somewhat. In much the same way that things like seatbelt laws are not applied to school buses. So manufacturers started pushing trucks as every day drivers because they could make them cheaper and make more profit.
They didn't make trucks/SUVs because people loved them. They marketed the crap out of them and convinced people that they wanted them. CAFE standards, to this day, are far more lax when applied to the big trucks and SUVs that the manufacturers are, still, marketing the crap out of.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Mmmmmm... no, I don't think so.
Government standards for fuel economy and safety were drastically increased, but since trucks, at the time, were considered work vehicles, many of the rules didn't apply, or were relaxed somewhat. In much the same way that things like seatbelt laws are not applied to school buses. So manufacturers started pushing trucks as every day drivers because they could make them cheaper and make more profit.
They didn't make trucks/SUVs because people loved them. They marketed the crap out of them and convinced people that they wanted them. CAFE standards, to this day, are far more lax when applied to the big trucks and SUVs that the manufacturers are, still, marketing the crap out of.
I did put the cycle in the wrong order, you are correct. Before they started pushing them in marketing, the typical "big" vehicle was a station wagon, which was actually getting more compact and efficient. And most people were driving smaller cars.
 

Buka

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BowDec13th.jpeg


Climate change. Yesterday it was on the other side of the house.

Hey, just lightening up the thread. :)
 

dvcochran

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Mmmmmm... no, I don't think so.
Government standards for fuel economy and safety were drastically increased, but since trucks, at the time, were considered work vehicles, many of the rules didn't apply, or were relaxed somewhat. In much the same way that things like seatbelt laws are not applied to school buses. So manufacturers started pushing trucks as every day drivers because they could make them cheaper and make more profit.
They didn't make trucks/SUVs because people loved them. They marketed the crap out of them and convinced people that they wanted them. CAFE standards, to this day, are far more lax when applied to the big trucks and SUVs that the manufacturers are, still, marketing the crap out of.
Have they leveled the standards for trucks and SUV's now that the consumer market is so much greater?
 

Gerry Seymour

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It seemed you were implying a hurricane could not affect something that uses the ocean or is adjacent to the it. Did you mean something else?
Yes. I was asking why you were saying the wave tech was "taming" nature. You referred to Katrina, which made no sense to me, so I asked why you were talking about hurricanes. If you'd just responded the first time with "putting stuff in the ocean puts it at risk of things like hurricanes" we could have gotten back on track right away. I still feel like the term "taming" is misused there, but so long as we both know what you mean, we can skip that pedantic point and get on with discussion of things that actually matter.
 

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Mmmmmm... no, I don't think so.
Government standards for fuel economy and safety were drastically increased, but since trucks, at the time, were considered work vehicles, many of the rules didn't apply, or were relaxed somewhat. In much the same way that things like seatbelt laws are not applied to school buses. So manufacturers started pushing trucks as every day drivers because they could make them cheaper and make more profit.
They didn't make trucks/SUVs because people loved them. They marketed the crap out of them and convinced people that they wanted them. CAFE standards, to this day, are far more lax when applied to the big trucks and SUVs that the manufacturers are, still, marketing the crap out of.

Have they leveled the standards for trucks and SUV's now that the consumer market is so much greater?

I've highlighted the part you apparently missed the first time you read my post.
 

dvcochran

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Yes. I was asking why you were saying the wave tech was "taming" nature. You referred to Katrina, which made no sense to me, so I asked why you were talking about hurricanes. If you'd just responded the first time with "putting stuff in the ocean puts it at risk of things like hurricanes" we could have gotten back on track right away. I still feel like the term "taming" is misused there, but so long as we both know what you mean, we can skip that pedantic point and get on with discussion of things that actually matter.
Sorry. Just assumed it was obvious.
 

dvcochran

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I've highlighted the part you apparently missed the first time you read my post.
Yea, I was distracted by work. That was rather obvious wasn't it.
If seems to be a weak and confusing standard. The mileage requirements seem pretty straight forward for all size vehicles as it is based on their footprint. It appears it is only enforced at the fleet level. Also confusing is fuel economy target vs. the published fuel economy. What is the point of a target if you are not required to hit it, at least some of the time? Leave it to the EPA to make a convoluted mess.
 

Flying Crane

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No, I do not.

From what I have seen, it seems to me that the news outlets that lean conservative tend to deny the climate science. If you can point me to a conservative-leaning news source that accepts the climate science and champions the need to take action, please do. I would like to be wrong about that.

At the same time, liberal-leaning outlets tend to champion the climate science, and stand in line with the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community.

This is what I see.

I wonder why these divisions are so clear.

Why do the conservative outlets stand in opposition to the overwhelming scientific consensus?
Still hoping for an answer to this. Do you have something to say, or do we let the record show that you will not answer the question?
 

Flying Crane

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Ok, can you not see a comparison between this common issue in engineering, where specialist expertise is countered by people who have non...

...and your view that the information about the conditon of the global climate should be weighed in on by people who do not study climate science and have done no research themselves?

Because to me that is exactly same thing and it is equally frustrating.
Still hoping for an answer to this as well, from @dvcochran.

Is there an answer coming, or does the record again show that you won’t answer the question?
 

dvcochran

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Still hoping for an answer to this as well, from @dvcochran.

Is there an answer coming, or does the record again show that you won’t answer the question?
Anxious much? I get two inquiries two minutes apart. Sad. You will not win this debate. At the best, we are going to agree to disagree. I really don't care whether we do not.
I have answered time and again. I guess you just are not hearing it.
 

Flying Crane

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[QUOTE="dvcochran, post: 1939959
I have answered time and again. I guess you just are not hearing it.[/QUOTE]
Nope, you have not. The record speaks for itself.
 

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