Christianity and Gay Marriage

[Carol]

A friend of mine is a radio talk show host. When we get going on an IM conversation, it is usually on a controversial subject recently converted to a sect of Christianity. He referenced a debate he was having with a family member, and made this statement:

"I support gay marriage, even though I can't reconcile it in the Bible."

Do you agree with this? If so why or why not?

If you respond, please be respectful.

 

[mrhnau]

"I support gay marriage, even though I can't reconcile it in the Bible."

Do you agree with this? If so why or why not?

He can support gay marriage, but he is right, it can't be reconciled w/ the bible.

If you want to get onto the subject of sin, thats not the only one, but it seemed to get alot of attention lately. I guess its because its become such a hot social topic lately...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Well, Christians do a lot of things that can't be reconciled in the bible. Not a lot of Christian eat kosher, do they? Some do, but that is a very small minority. There are many other rules set in the old testament that aren't generally followed, and Jesus specifically says the laws were still to be followed.

Jeff

 

[mrhnau]

Well, Christians do a lot of things that can't be reconciled in the bible. Not a lot of Christian eat kosher, do they? Some do, but that is a very small minority. There are many other rules set in the old testament that aren't generally followed, and Jesus specifically says the laws were still to be followed.

Jeff

as for the diet thing...

And he said to them, Have even you so little wisdom? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside is not able to make him unclean, Because it goes not into the heart but into the stomach, and goes out with the waste? And he said, That which comes out of the man, that makes the man unclean. Because from inside, from the heart of men, come evil thoughts and unclean pleasures, The taking of goods and of life, broken faith between husband and wife, the desire of wealth, wrongdoing, deceit, sins of the flesh, an evil eye, angry words, pride, foolish acts: All these evil things come from inside, and make the man unclean.

I think a Kosher diet is healthy, and in many instances, science has proven the motivation behind certain aspects of the diet...

I'm sure you are not just interested in diet though... Same thing went for stuff like circumscision (circumscision of the heart vs flesh), and a variety of things... I think certain aspects have to deal with spiritual maturity. As adults, you don't do some of the things as children. As a 31 year old, I still don't hold the hands of my parents when I cross the street. I've matured enough to understand the wisdom of looking both ways, not stepping in front of cars, and being safe. I understand the danger inherant in not doing so. Likewise, Jesus was pointing to some of the deeper motivation behind the laws that existed. If I am loving my neighbor, will I be committing adultery w/ his wife? If I love God, will I be cursing him? If I love my neighbors, shouldn't I not steal?

I think alot of what Jesus discussed spoke to the roots of the problem. While adultery was a sin, Jesus went even further, to the root of the issue, and said even lusting in your heart was a sin! I don't see that as a cause for hopelessness, but rather a desperate need for dependance on God and forgiveness... Sorry if I'm getting preachy, but its a topic I love

 

[SFC JeffJ]

as for the diet thing...



I think a Kosher diet is healthy, and in many instances, science has proven the motivation behind certain aspects of the diet...

I'm sure you are not just interested in diet though... Same thing went for stuff like circumscision (circumscision of the heart vs flesh), and a variety of things... I think certain aspects have to deal with spiritual maturity. As adults, you don't do some of the things as children. As a 31 year old, I still don't hold the hands of my parents when I cross the street. I've matured enough to understand the wisdom of looking both ways, not stepping in front of cars, and being safe. I understand the danger inherant in not doing so. Likewise, Jesus was pointing to some of the deeper motivation behind the laws that existed. If I am loving my neighbor, will I be committing adultery w/ his wife? If I love God, will I be cursing him? If I love my neighbors, shouldn't I not steal?

I think alot of what Jesus discussed spoke to the roots of the problem. While adultery was a sin, Jesus went even further, to the root of the issue, and said even lusting in your heart was a sin! I don't see that as a cause for hopelessness, but rather a desperate need for dependance on God and forgiveness... Sorry if I'm getting preachy, but its a topic I love

So by that reasoning, would homosexual relations be a sin?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i support homosexuality. i believe in god. and frankly, there's very little i consider good and right and just that i can't find a bible verse to say is a sin.

on the other hand, there's very little i consider good and right and just that i can't find a bible verse to support.

jesus got a bad rap. most of what he had to say boiled down to "listen, people. those rules and laws were just a fancy way of saying two things.

1. there's a god. remember and respect him.
2. be nice to each other, fer cryin out loud.

if you get those right, the letter of the law matters very little, if at all"

then saul/paul wrote those atrocious epistles which were often all about using rule one as an excuse to break rule two, and to put the focus right back on the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

jesus christ would be appalled that people hate anybody (not just the homosexuals and the muslims that are in the current vogue) on his account.

 

[MA-Caver]

So by that reasoning, would homosexual relations be a sin?

The Bible says Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." God said it and meant it. So yes, in His eyes it's a sin.
But to millions it's not. It's natural, it's okay, it's genetic, it's people "born-that-way", it's a whole bunch of rationalizations & justifications that lead to that.
We can choose to obey God and be pleasing in His eyes or we can choose to defy what the Bible (the word of God) and live our lives as we see fit.
If a minister/preacher marries two people of the same sex, knowing full well that they will live as man and wife as a man and woman does in ALL things in a marriage then they are defying God as accordance to the Bible. Even if they are not having sexual relations they are still of mind in that sense and in their hearts in that sense. God judges people by their hearts, actions and intents. IMO

I've friends who are gay and I neither condemn or condone their behavior. It's what they choose to do for themselves and not what I would choose to do for myself. Otherwise we're freinds as two human beings can be freinds in all respects. There's a line and it's respected by both sides.
But to quote Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

jesus got a bad rap. most of what he had to say boiled down to "listen, people. those rules and laws were just a fancy way of saying two things.

1. there's a god. remember and respect him.
2. be nice to each other, fer cryin out loud.

if you get those right, the letter of the law matters very little, if at all"

Well, uh, doesn't OBEYING the letter of the law... (God's word) mean it's (one) way of showing respect to Him? When your parent tells you, as a kid, NOT do something and you obey them... is it because you respect (love) them (and their authority) or you feared an ***-whuppin?

 

[Carol]

But Christians don't insist that proof of a virginity of a woman be brought out for a public trial, even though the Bible says as much.

If a new husband slandered his bride and claimed that she was not a virgin, the bride's father and mother would defend her name and the name of their family. They would present the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city (Deuteronomy 22:15).

Christians also dont insist that a woman be slaughtered for not being a virgin, even though the Bible instructs this as well.

"But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy. 22:20-21).

 

[matt.m]

you know I have nothing against homosexuals. I don't support it, however....I believe that Jesus would not look upon those who condemn others with favor. He always sat, ate, and drank with the unfavorable of his time period.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Well, uh, doesn't OBEYING the letter of the law... (God's word) mean it's (one) way of showing respect to Him? When your parent tells you, as a kid, NOT do something and you obey them... is it because you respect (love) them (and their authority) or you feared an ***-whuppin?

i think a lot of what jesus taught had to do with getting beyond some of the rather petty details of the old testament law....mankind and society had developed beyond the need for religious strictures that avoid trychinosis (keeping kosher) for example.

or more to the point, mankind has developed to the point that laws intended to keep a people growing (don't masturbate, don't practice birth control, don't sleep with members of the same sex) are not only unnecessary but dangerous.

jesus said to think about the laws, to temper them with kindness and good judgment. he was betrayed and murdered for saying so, and then his message got co-opted by those who rule by fear of law.

but he definitely said love is more imporant than strict adherence to any orthodoxy.

 

[morph4me]

In my opinion the bible is man's interpretation of what he believes god wants, which is why you can find different, and sometimes opposing passages and interpretation.

During a time when the bigger my tribe was, and the more men I had in it to fight, the safer that made me, homosexuality did nothing to contribute to the survival of the tribe, and was considered a sin. Today, it just doesn't have the same impact.

Whether it's right or wrong is not for us to judge, personally, if two people love each other and don't hurt anyone else, I don't see a problem. I didn't choose to be straight I just am, homosexuals didn't choose to be homosexuals, they just are, it occurs in nature, so how can it be unnatural?

 

[mrhnau]

i support homosexuality. i believe in god. and frankly, there's very little i consider good and right and just that i can't find a bible verse to say is a sin.

on the other hand, there's very little i consider good and right and just that i can't find a bible verse to support.

Could you explain this? perhaps your verbage is making it confusing...

jesus got a bad rap. most of what he had to say boiled down to "listen, people. those rules and laws were just a fancy way of saying two things.

1. there's a god. remember and respect him.
2. be nice to each other, fer cryin out loud.

if you get those right, the letter of the law matters very little, if at all"

Sort of...

then saul/paul wrote those atrocious epistles which were often all about using rule one as an excuse to break rule two, and to put the focus right back on the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

jesus christ would be appalled that people hate anybody (not just the homosexuals and the muslims that are in the current vogue) on his account.

First, the epistles were not atrocious. Second, he did not write all of them. Third, its not about hating people. Even Jesus told people to stop sinning, often after he healed them. Would you call that hating sinners? I'd call that loving.

 

[Ping898]

Here's my thoughts on all,
I have no issues with gay marriage, because most of the time gays seem to want to get married to get the secular benefits (e.g. rights of inheritance, insurance, etc...) and I see no reason why two people in a committed relationship can't have those benefits....
I also have no problems if someone wants to be married in their church, my church (Roman Catholic) doesn't have to married two gay people if they don't want too, but if some other church wants too then feel free.

Now Leviticus is often what is used in as the point in the bible that says no to gay married, but unless I am mistaken Leviticus also has the eye for and eye thing and many other "laws" or edicts that have long since gone by the wayside.

Here's the other issue I have with the arguements against gays and gay marriage, just because someone is a homosexual and dating or in a committed relationship doesn't mean there is any sex going on, just like in every hetero union sex isn't always happening, so whose to say their relationship "goes against God"....

I think everyone is made in god's image so no matter what your gender choice of a bed partner, I will assume that God wanted that for you and you as you should be and so for that reason alone I can have no issues reconsiling the bible and gay marriage, but I understand people who can't.

 

[Kacey]

There are quite a few laws that are no longer upheld, even by Orthodox Jews, who follow many of the laws provided in Leviticus - when, for example, did you hear of someone stoning a witch? Or, for that matter, walking the proscribed distance from the city walls, digging a hole with a wooden paddle, using it for bodily waste, and filling it back in again? One of my favorite quotes from Spock's World, by Diane Duane:

"I remember a time some year ago, on Earth," Sarek said, "when I was invited to attend a religious gathering as part of a cultural exchange program. The people at the gathering were professing their belief in one of your people's holy books, and stating that the only way to be saved - I am still unclear as to what they felt they needed saving from: we never go as far as an explanation - the only way to be 'saved' was to follow the book's directions implicitly, to the letter. Now that book is a notable one, in my opinion, and filled with wise advices for those who will read them and act on them wisely. But some of the advices have less bearing on the present times that others: at least, so it seemed to me. I asked these people whether they felt that all the book must be obeyed, and they said yes. Then asked them whether each of them then did indeed, as the book said they must, take a wooden paddle, when they need to evacuate their bowels, and go out the prescribed distance from the city where they lived and dig a hole with the paddle, and relieve themselves into the hole and cover it up again? They were rather annoyed with me. And I said to them that it seemed to me that one had no right to insist that others keep all of the law unless one keeps it all himself. I am afraid," Sarek said, mildly, "that they became more annoyed yet."

Too many people, as described by Sarek in the above quote, insist that others keep those parts of the Bible that are important to them, citing the Bible as the supreme authority, and yet ignore those rules that they consider unimportant. Homosexuality was decried in many early societies because it prevented conception - and in general, homosexuality was most likely to be decried in belief systems which also touted procreation as a tenet of the faith - after all, until recent times, people who engaged solely in homosexual relations did not have children.

Reform Judaism, in the mid-1800s, split Biblical law into to two categories: laws of morality and laws of conscience. Laws of morality are those you keep because you are a moral person, while laws of conscience are those you keep because your conscience requires you to do so. The latter mostly encompasses the food laws, the clothing laws, laws about work on the Sabbath, the requirement of 10 adult men for a minyan (needed for certain religious obligations) and other things that set Jews so clearly apart from those around them - the split in the laws was intended, in fact, to allow Jews to blend in better with society, and also to allow Jews to live in the expanding frontier without having to huddle together to meet the needs of those laws. Now, the question becomes: is homosexuality a law of morality, or a law of conscience? For myself, I consider it a law of conscience - and therefore people can choose to keep that law or not, as their conscience dicates - NOT as my conscience dictates.

My opinion is, and always has been, that love is hard enough to find without putting such strictures upon it. If you don't approve of homosexual relationships, don't participate in one - but don't tell others they can't, simply because you don't like it. There must be some reason for homosexuality that goes well beyond personal choice, or it would not show up so consistently despite all the efforts various societies have made to suppress it; even when no one talked about it, no one admitted to it, no one saw it, it still occurred - that, in my opinion, goes well beyond personal choice and into genetic predetermination.

 

[Ray]

Once there were prophets even though scripture existed. What did the prophets urge people to do? Why are there no prophets today so we don't have to try to interpret?

 

[morph4me]

Why would a prophet be better able to interpret things then we ourselves?? What makes a person a prophet, other than other peoples opinion?

 

[MA-Caver]

Once there were prophets even though scripture existed. What did the prophets urge people to do? Why are there no prophets today so we don't have to try to interpret?

Ah, but there are prophets today, here and now. You just need to know where to look. :asian:

 

[Ray]

Why would a prophet be better able to interpret things then we ourselves?? What makes a person a prophet, other than other peoples opinion?

A true and living prophet is like Moses, God speaks to him.

 

[Ray]

Ah, but there are prophets today, here and now. You just need to know where to look.

Tell me more...

 

[SHINOBI SHUGENDO]

What the Hell are you people thinking. First off you can't even use the bible as an ultimate truth. Do you beleive god came down to earth and wrote this tale of fiction. Or do you beleive that God told these prophets to write down his or her words. Nowadays this would be seen as insanity.

If you look at the life of Christ without any of the claims to immaculate conception you will see that he lived a life of service filled with love and understanding. Yeshua or jesus would frequently surround himself with the outcasts. He beleived that these people needed attention more than the wealthy or so called Kosher upright snobs of the day. Jesus would not have cared where you inserted your private parts.

And the issue of Homosexuals ruining the sanctity of marriage, well straights have destroyed the holiness of that tradition long ago.