christian disrespect!

[aplonis]

I aolologise to the board for this double post....my mentioning bhudda was a mistake..I cant find the edit post button!

[...]

This man is just trying to make himself important by imposing rules in the Dojo...well that is what sensei said anyway..I have senseis OK...so I am just going to go on doing what I do!

No offense taken here... Just think of MA meditation as a fixed format, self-administered, formalized, attitude adjustment. In its most basic form, that's all it is. When we Buddhists do in our own particular way all we are doing is electing a very particular attitude and adjusting in accordance with that. In MA schools, the elective "attitude" is one appropriate to those environs.

As for control freaks...be glad it is not the GM himself (or the instructor's own interpretation of the GM's putative rules). One class I belonged to for most of a year put forward quite a different picture of acceptable rules for personal responsibility that I could endure it no more and withdrew. It may have very well been authentic...13th century Samurai authentic. In any case, I did not fit there...nor any modern person at all...I rather doubt.

In another class under the same Shidoshi all the students would make formal bows to a Buddhist shrine at the beginning of every class...and not a single one of them (except me) sincere in doing so. That was equally upsetting from a Buddhist point of view. They were being trained to ignore the lofty symbolism and supplant something else in its stead. They were being immunized against the symbology by that practice. From a Buddhist standpoint they were being robbed of the power latent in those symbols by making wholly empty obeisance. Equally wrong, is it not? Better to walk by and not see than to bow and not feel.

 

[SAVAGE]

No offense taken here... Just think of MA meditation as a fixed format, self-administered, formalized, attitude adjustment. In its most basic form, that's all it is. When we Buddhists do in our own particular way all we are doing is electing a very particular attitude and adjusting in accordance with that. In MA schools, the elective "attitude" is one appropriate to those environs.

As for control freaks...be glad it is not the GM himself (or the instructor's own interpretation of the GM's putative rules). One class I belonged to for most of a year put forward quite a different picture of acceptable rules for personal responsibility that I could endure it no more and withdrew. It may have very well been authentic...13th century Samurai authentic. In any case, I did not fit there...nor any modern person at all...I rather doubt.

In another class under the same Shidoshi all the students would make formal bows to a Buddhist shrine at the beginning of every class...and not a single one of them (except me) sincere in doing so. That was equally upsetting from a Buddhist point of view. They were being trained to ignore the lofty symbolism and supplant something else in its stead. They were being immunized against the symbology by that practice. From a Buddhist standpoint they were being robbed of the power latent in those symbols by making wholly empty obeisance. Equally wrong, is it not? Better to walk by and not see than to bow and not feel.

I never thought of it that way...an excellent post!

 

[Carol]

My faith is a very personal part of me, but still a part of me. My art is a part of me. I could not shelve my faith upon entering a dojo any more than I could shelve my art upon entering a gurdwara.

Quiet praying during longer times of meditation helps me focus, too. Glad to hear that things worked out well.

 

[bcbernam777]

The possibility may exist that this particular Senior has a problem with Christianity full stop. Seek clarification with him, and discuss why this is such a problem, As a MA teacher I know respect cuts both ways. My Sifu who is Buddhist and old school, knows that I am a Christian as well as another class mate and he respects this, he tells us that he knows that myself and this class mate can spar together because of our religious beliefs leave us free of ego. He knows that the christian aspect adds to benefit our training, he therefore embraces it. If your senior cannot embrace that and respect the fact that you hold certain beliefs, then I see it as his problem, not yours, as for distracting people with the sighn of the cross, if they are distracted by this then they have problems focusing anyway, as performing the sighn of the cross is not really all that noticible if one is hunched over. I would still say that if that is his Dojo, you still need to respect that, if you want to continue to train there. Dont sweat it, go talk to him

 

[Josh]

There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son.

I probably shouldn’t say this, but there is so much wrong with that statement.

As for making the sign of the cross in class, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[Ping898]

I am wondering what causes Christians to take more offense at these aspects (bowing/meditation) of MA than it seems that other religious practitioners do? It is often I hear things along the line that a Christian won't do some aspect of the training more than I ever hear from other non-Christians. If it was purely a religious thing I would expect the atheists or agnonstics to be complaining all the time.

I ask cause I am a practicing Catholic, I have a very strong faith that is an ingrained part of me and has been since I was a small child. I am confirmed and was at one point a Eucharistic Minister, I went to a Catholic HS by choice, and my uncle is a brother and priest so I have easy access to answers to all my theology questions, but it has never occured to me that in MA bowing or meditating was anyway something meant to be religious. I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.

So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?

Is it the way the acts are presented from the instructor or are some faiths more likely to cause its people to be more likely to jump to that conclusion?

 

[dobermann]

i dont want to be disrespectful of any religions. my beliefs are being referred to as satanistic. i claim that god lies in each and everyone of us. actually we all are god in that sense.

why is it that people that are so fanatic about their beliefs and them not wanting to interfere with other religions. would that be so bad? it would only stop about half the wars going on right now..

 

[IcemanSK]

I am wondering what causes Christians to take more offense at these aspects (bowing/meditation) of MA than it seems that other religious practitioners do? It is often I hear things along the line that a Christian won't do some aspect of the training more than I ever hear from other non-Christians. If it was purely a religious thing I would expect the atheists or agnonstics to be complaining all the time.

I ask cause I am a practicing Catholic, I have a very strong faith that is an ingrained part of me and has been since I was a small child. I am confirmed and was at one point a Eucharistic Minister, I went to a Catholic HS by choice, and my uncle is a brother and priest so I have easy access to answers to all my theology questions, but it has never occured to me that in MA bowing or meditating was anyway something meant to be religious. I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.

So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?

Is it the way the acts are presented from the instructor or are some faiths more likely to cause its people to be more likely to jump to that conclusion?

I think it has to do with folks not understanding the context of what bowing means in Asian culture. They equate it with the idea of not bowing to idols in the Old Testament. Bowing isn't a part of American culture. So, if you understand only what the Bible says not to do without understanding the Asian cultural idea of bowing....there's your easy jump.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.

That is exactly what it is, a sign of respect and a time of reflection or in some cases development of ki, Qi or Chi (whichever fits your MA). I will have to look for something I once read on this topic that made sense, but basically The religions of the country that martial arts comes from are Taoist, Buddhist, Shinto. However those, or at least Taoist and Buddhist started as philosophies, NOT, religion. And although many Samurai practiced Shinto that does not mean that their martial art preached Shinto. Somewhere along the line the Martial Arts, the Philosophy and the religion they became got mixed up.

What is amazing about this post is that the problem is usually reversed. People of western religions are put off by a perceived eastern religion within the martial arts. The fact that the sign of the cross is an issue amazes me.

Currently many martial artists from China or Japan do not even mention religion, only respect.

 

[Kacey]

There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son.

Um... being that, like over half the planet, I don't ascribe to this belief, I would ask that you qualify such statements by referring only to yourself.

I probably shouldn’t say this, but there is so much wrong with that statement.

While I disagree with the statement, I see nothing wrong with Josh choosing to make it, nor do I consider it "wrong" - simply different.

As for making the sign of the cross in class, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

By contrast, I do see a problem with making the sign of the cross in class if someone else present objects to it. If the focus of the class is not religious, then outward symbols of religion should stay outside if someone objects - but if so, it should be enforced equally; e.g. if this student cannot make the sign of the cross, then no other gestures representative of religious beliefs should be allowed (unless the class is focused on one religion, as in the thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30192 on Christian Martial Arts schools, in which case all students should be made aware of the class's orientation when signing up).

Being Jewish, I have had problems with religion in a variety of settings, including being told (by a school principal at a school where I was working as a substitute) that I couldn't wear my Star of David necklace because of it's religious significance and the possibility that a child or parent might object... by a woman wearing a cross 5 times the size of my star. So perhaps I'm more sensitive to the chance that someone might be offended than other people might be. Also, I've spent years trying to find the balance between explaining to coworkers and middle school students why I'm taking a day off for a particular religious holiday that they don't share and getting nasty calls and/or letters from parents who think I'm proselytizing - so I mostly avoid the topic unless someone asks me, and then I'm happy to discuss it.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

All I can say is that I ain't got nothing against Jesus Christ ! Its his fans I can't stand !

 

[Cujo]

Just my 2 cents. I also am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Roman Catholic is not something that I "do", but something that I "am", right to the core of my being. I would never disrespect anothers faith system or beliefs, but I will not hide my own either. If it is not acceptable to make the sign of the cross in the school, thats fine as it is his school. However, I would then seek out a school where such a gesture would not be seen as offensive or disruptive.

Pax Christi
Cujo

 

[Xue Sheng]

[/i]
While I disagree with the statement, I see nothing wrong with Josh choosing to make it, nor do I consider it "wrong" - simply different.

Kacey

Let me clarify my statement. I was not making light of any religion nor anyone’s right to any religious beliefs, views, or practice. As I stated, "I probably shouldn't say this" and I probably shouldn’t say this either but, my reference was to the statement, by definition.

It is a contradictory statement, saying there is no religion and using religious icons, as an example, to prove that point.

I meant no disrespect and I apologize if I offended you or Josh.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey

Let me clarify my statement. I was not making light of any religion nor anyone’s right to any religious beliefs, views, or practice. As I stated, "I probably shouldn't say this" and I probably shouldn’t say this either but, my reference was to the statement, by definition.

It is a contradictory statement, saying there is no religion and using religious icons, as an example, to prove that point.

I meant no disrespect and I apologize if I offended you or Josh.

Thank you for the clarification and the apology - both are appreciated, and both demonstrate a strong moral center - no matter what source it comes from.

 

[Marginal]

So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?

I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.

 

[dobermann]

I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.

 

[SAVAGE]

All I can say is that I ain't got nothing against Jesus Christ ! Its his fans I can't stand !

ROFL This is pure comedy gold!

:asian:

 

[heretic888]

I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.

:asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[DeLamar.J]

I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety!

A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect

I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!

*bows respectfully*

You have freedom of religion. Everyone has the right to pray how they want to IMO. I am a LaVeyan Satanist, and I have no problem holding hands with my grandma and blessing our meal. I think people need to back off and allow a person freedom of religion. However, if you are in a situation where you might offend someone, just try to say it in your head. People get a little crazy when it comes to religion, and its best to avoid those types of situations if possible. Its just not worth it.
I have no problem going to Christain church, I love to learn new things. But I'm not going to bust out a HAIL SATAN in the middle of prayer (LOL). Just be aware of who you are around. If your around reasonable people who dont mind you being open about certain things and not judge, then its all good. But those types seem rare to me.
Also I would like to leave a good quote, Im not sure whos it is but I think you will find it useful......

Those who matter dont mind, and those who mind dont matter.