Chokes and Strangles

[drop bear]

Well, perhaps your experience doesn't cover all bases…

As to the technique, no, really. It was done more as a strike to the trachea, a sudden, sharp pulling pressure in, then a crushing, grinding action by rolling your wrist up into the throat. This method is not designed to get someone to pass out, or go to sleep, it's designed to attack and damage the windpipe. It had far more in common with military methods, with lethal intent, than anything else… and the biggest concern is that the room was filled with people who had no experience, no understanding of the control needed, and the instructor had no concern for that himself… instead telling people they were being "too nice"…

To my mind, he has no business teaching anybody anything.

Ok so we are on basically the same page regarding what that choke is. Now I did ask if you considered that the choke was taught in an overly aggressive manner. Which of course it can be. But the choke itself is a very common way of getting a submission.

There is a nastier application of the wind pipe idea called the 10 finger choke.

And that is legal as well.

I will hunt down the C class rules (or what you may suggest as amateur) regarding choking and neck cranking.

 

[drop bear]

Mixed martial arts rules - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It is choking with the fingers not the hands or the forearm. The neck cranks are dedicated neck cranks rather Than incidental ones. As was described to me. If it looks like you are pulling the guys head off you will get stopped.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A lot of wind chokes can easily be trachea crushes, depending on how they are applied. I don't really care for them for that reason. They're legal in BJJ and MMA competition and reasonably safe when applied with control in that context, because people can always tap out. In a self-defense situation there is no tapping out, so the consequences could be much worse. I much prefer blood chokes, which allow you to put someone to sleep with no pain or permanent damage.

 

[Steve]

Then might I suggest you appreciate that I can tell the difference between them, and was clarifying for you?



I don't even know where to start with that… but I'll begin by stating that what was shown at the seminar is not really that close to what is shown in your video… and couple that with saying that the "trachea" version seems more like a neck crank combined with a trachea pressure… which, depending on the ruleset, are both illegal in a number of MMA approaches… so, "sport"?

Neck cranks are illegal in some grappling competitions and legal in others. Air chokes (or whatever they're being called) are mostly legal. BJJ competitions tend to protect lower belts and kids, so the tool box is limited. Guillotines, thumb chokes, ezekiels... lots of examples of techniques that attack the windpipe rather than the carotid arteries.

I've never heard of a neck crank being illegal in MMA, and air chokes are numerous, but I suppose they might happen.

Regarding the technique at the seminar, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. Hope no one was hurt.

 

[Razor]

Sorry to "necro" this thread, it's been a rather busy few weeks for me. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all of the information.

How Safe is Choking in Judo

Basically no reported deaths, no reported lasting damage.

There have been deaths from chokes in law enforcement, but that is a rather different sort of situation. There was also a backyard video of a kid choking his cousin where he kept holding it long after the point of unconsciousness that led to death. The Gracie Brothers did a video on the incident where they talked about how chokes work and the safety issues:

Anyways, chokes are very safe, when done in a controlled environment by people that know what they are doing. But it is also very dangerous, and without control and knowing what's going on it can become deadly. But if you damage the wind pipe, or hold the choke long after the guy passes out you risk serious problems. Both of those are pretty unlikely in a training or sport environment though.

Thanks for that Andrew, that website seems to be a really good source on Judo/Jujutsu techniques! Very interesting video as well.

Andrew answered your other questions pretty well, so I thought I'd grab this one. The answer is - just a few seconds. (So all those video games where you preform a "non-lethal" takedown of a guard and leave him unharmed but unconscious in a corner somewhere? Sorry dude. Doesn't work that way.)

Here is a video of a friend of mine explaining the effectiveness and safety of chokes. At the end, he demonstrates several people being choked to unconsciousness so you can see what the process (including recovery) looks like.

(Note - the gentleman in question is not some ignorant yahoo taking stupid chances. Besides being a BJJ & Judo black belt, he also has a PhD in exercise physiology, so he knows something about how the human body works.)

Thank you Tony, another very good video and comments. As for non-lethal takedowns, I guess that puts an end to my plans of Deus Ex-ing my way through top-secret government facilities on my day off

One thing I noticed is that many of the people in videos don't seem to make the distinction between choke and strangle that I was always taught: that a choke restricts air flow and a strange restricts blood flow. Is that not the case, or do some people just not make the distinction?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One thing I noticed is that many of the people in videos don't seem to make the distinction between choke and strangle that I was always taught: that a choke restricts air flow and a strange restricts blood flow. Is that not the case, or do some people just not make the distinction?

Some people use that terminology, but the more common usage in my experience is "blood choke" vs "air choke".

 

[Dirty Dog]

One thing I noticed is that many of the people in videos don't seem to make the distinction between choke and strangle that I was always taught: that a choke restricts air flow and a strange restricts blood flow. Is that not the case, or do some people just not make the distinction?

Technically, "choke" means to restrict an air passage, while "strangle" requires the person (or animal) to die.
Thus the term "air choke" is redundant, "blood choke" is technically incorrect, but closer than "strangle". Unless you make a habit of killing your training partners, of course.
It's sort of like people who say they were electrocuted. If you're alive, you were not electrocuted. You were shocked.

 

[Steve]

So, technically, what is restricting bloodflow to the brain and putting them to sleep, if not choking someone? What's the right word to use? Inquiring minds want to know.

For what it's worth, the wiki explanation seems to be incomplete and/or innaccurate.

Blood choke[edit]
Blood chokes, carotid restraint or sleeper holds, are a form of strangulation that compress one or both carotid arteries and/or the jugular veins without compressing the airway, hence causing cerebral ischemia and a temporary hypoxic condition in the brain.[5] A well applied blood choke may lead to unconsciousness in a matter of seconds. Compared to strangulation with the hands, properly applied blood chokes require little physical strength.[6] "Lateral vascular neck restraint" "neck restraint" "carotid restraint" and "vascular restraint" are terms used by law enforcement workers for a blood choke.[7][8][9]

 

[Dirty Dog]

So, technically, what is restricting bloodflow to the brain and putting them to sleep, if not choking someone? What's the right word to use? Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't know of a specific word, and I use "blood choke" personally. Because "mechanically induced transient cerebral anoxia" would take too long to say.

Wiki has a horid definition, in any case, since the way it's worded implies that you can compress the carotids without compressing the jugulars. You cannot. The carotids are much deeper, and arteries take a LOT more pressure to compress.
When we're using ultrasound to help with vascular access, that's the easy way to tell if you're about to puncture an artery or a vein. Push on the transducer. Veins will collapse. Arteries will not.
Faster than using doppler flow...

 

[Hanzou]

Well, perhaps your experience doesn't cover all bases…

As to the technique, no, really. It was done more as a strike to the trachea, a sudden, sharp pulling pressure in, then a crushing, grinding action by rolling your wrist up into the throat. This method is not designed to get someone to pass out, or go to sleep, it's designed to attack and damage the windpipe. It had far more in common with military methods, with lethal intent, than anything else… and the biggest concern is that the room was filled with people who had no experience, no understanding of the control needed, and the instructor had no concern for that himself… instead telling people they were being "too nice"…

To my mind, he has no business teaching anybody anything.

That unfortunately sounds like a lot of schools trying to make their system seem as non-sport as possible. Ironically, they end up losing their overall effectiveness as a result of trying to be overtly hardcore. Consequently they also increase the chances of their students getting injured.

There's value in practicing safe and humane methods of subduing someone. You don't need to smash their windpipe to take them out of commission.

 

[Brian King]

Andrew answered your other questions pretty well, so I thought I'd grab this one. The answer is - just a few seconds. (So all those video games where you preform a "non-lethal" takedown of a guard and leave him unharmed but unconscious in a corner somewhere? Sorry dude. Doesn't work that way.)

Here is a video of a friend of mine explaining the effectiveness and safety of chokes. At the end, he demonstrates several people being choked to unconsciousness so you can see what the process (including recovery) looks like.

(Note - the gentleman in question is not some ignorant yahoo taking stupid chances. Besides being a BJJ & Judo black belt, he also has a PhD in exercise physiology, so he knows something about how the human body works.)

Great vid Tony. I agree with Buka that the experience and knowledge is off the charts. Wonderful that he is willing to share. I really like the video taping consent, choke out, and interviews. With the smart phones all being able to record now days this makes a lot of sense.

Regarding choking -

All of our students eventually get choked out and choke someone out. The choked out does not have to be all the way out. We get in groups of three or so, one choking, one doing the choke, and another watching the person being choked. It can be standing, sitting, or prone. For smaller folks choking larger sitting is usually recommended so that they do not drop their sleeping partner, relaxed body weight is honest. For some of the professionals we have them test themselves right after regaining consciousness. For LEO and soldiers they have to reassemble their firearm (they disassembled it prior to the choke) and if able get off a shot or dry fire if not on a range. Medical types (EMT and firefighters), door and security staff go right into CPR or some other emergency trauma care that is placed before them while they are out, so that the emergency is what they wake to. Interesting work. For some it is psychologically easier to get choked out than to choke someone out.

If the person doing the choke is experienced it usually only takes a few seconds, a person doing their first choke it usually takes a bit longer. Waking up is also very quick.

We have never had any injuries but I always make sure that we have medical folks attending class at the time we decide to do the choking classes just in case. Folks with heart or artery issues, on high blood pressure medications, overweight, history of strokes in family and elderly we keep an extra eye on them and encourage them to tap out rather than go out. We do not let people go out more than once in the class and only do the classes now and then.

It is safe and useful training done with he right mindset. People risk injury if doing it from standing and not catching the partner, but most report a feeling of euphoria after regaining consciousness. Many talk about dreaming. Some snore and gurgle (the gurgling can freak out some) had one guy talking while out but it was foreign sounding (he does not know foreign languages) and some spasm their legs or arms. It is all OK. People react differently. We usually have someone talking to them as they wake up. This is NOT something inexpereinced folks should try on their own with a buddy in the back yard. Get to a class, find a person that has experience and have them do the work. You do not have to go all the way out to get benefit from the experience. Exposure to what it is like both going out and putting someone out is what is sought, the actual line between tapping and going out is very thin and does not have to be crossed all that often in my opinion.

Regards
Brian King