Chokes and Strangles

Discussion in 'Japanese Martial Arts - General' started by Razor, May 1, 2015.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok so we are on basically the same page regarding what that choke is. Now I did ask if you considered that the choke was taught in an overly aggressive manner. Which of course it can be. But the choke itself is a very common way of getting a submission.

    There is a nastier application of the wind pipe idea called the 10 finger choke.



    And that is legal as well.

    I will hunt down the C class rules (or what you may suggest as amateur) regarding choking and neck cranking.
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Mixed martial arts rules - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

    It is choking with the fingers not the hands or the forearm. The neck cranks are dedicated neck cranks rather Than incidental ones. As was described to me. If it looks like you are pulling the guys head off you will get stopped.
     
  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    A lot of wind chokes can easily be trachea crushes, depending on how they are applied. I don't really care for them for that reason. They're legal in BJJ and MMA competition and reasonably safe when applied with control in that context, because people can always tap out. In a self-defense situation there is no tapping out, so the consequences could be much worse. I much prefer blood chokes, which allow you to put someone to sleep with no pain or permanent damage.
     
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  4. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Neck cranks are illegal in some grappling competitions and legal in others. Air chokes (or whatever they're being called) are mostly legal. BJJ competitions tend to protect lower belts and kids, so the tool box is limited. Guillotines, thumb chokes, ezekiels... lots of examples of techniques that attack the windpipe rather than the carotid arteries.

    I've never heard of a neck crank being illegal in MMA, and air chokes are numerous, but I suppose they might happen.

    Regarding the technique at the seminar, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. Hope no one was hurt.
     
  5. Razor

    Razor Green Belt

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    Sorry to "necro" this thread, it's been a rather busy few weeks for me. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all of the information.

    Thanks for that Andrew, that website seems to be a really good source on Judo/Jujutsu techniques! Very interesting video as well.

    Thank you Tony, another very good video and comments. As for non-lethal takedowns, I guess that puts an end to my plans of Deus Ex-ing my way through top-secret government facilities on my day off :D

    One thing I noticed is that many of the people in videos don't seem to make the distinction between choke and strangle that I was always taught: that a choke restricts air flow and a strange restricts blood flow. Is that not the case, or do some people just not make the distinction?
     
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  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Some people use that terminology, but the more common usage in my experience is "blood choke" vs "air choke".
     
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  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Technically, "choke" means to restrict an air passage, while "strangle" requires the person (or animal) to die.
    Thus the term "air choke" is redundant, "blood choke" is technically incorrect, but closer than "strangle". Unless you make a habit of killing your training partners, of course.
    It's sort of like people who say they were electrocuted. If you're alive, you were not electrocuted. You were shocked.
     
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  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    So, technically, what is restricting bloodflow to the brain and putting them to sleep, if not choking someone? What's the right word to use? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

    For what it's worth, the wiki explanation seems to be incomplete and/or innaccurate. :)

     
  9. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know of a specific word, and I use "blood choke" personally. Because "mechanically induced transient cerebral anoxia" would take too long to say.

    Wiki has a horid definition, in any case, since the way it's worded implies that you can compress the carotids without compressing the jugulars. You cannot. The carotids are much deeper, and arteries take a LOT more pressure to compress.
    When we're using ultrasound to help with vascular access, that's the easy way to tell if you're about to puncture an artery or a vein. Push on the transducer. Veins will collapse. Arteries will not.
    Faster than using doppler flow...
     
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  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    That unfortunately sounds like a lot of schools trying to make their system seem as non-sport as possible. Ironically, they end up losing their overall effectiveness as a result of trying to be overtly hardcore. Consequently they also increase the chances of their students getting injured.

    There's value in practicing safe and humane methods of subduing someone. You don't need to smash their windpipe to take them out of commission.
     
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  11. Brian King

    Brian King Master Black Belt

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    Great vid Tony. I agree with Buka that the experience and knowledge is off the charts. Wonderful that he is willing to share. I really like the video taping consent, choke out, and interviews. With the smart phones all being able to record now days this makes a lot of sense.

    Regarding choking -

    All of our students eventually get choked out and choke someone out. The choked out does not have to be all the way out. We get in groups of three or so, one choking, one doing the choke, and another watching the person being choked. It can be standing, sitting, or prone. For smaller folks choking larger sitting is usually recommended so that they do not drop their sleeping partner, relaxed body weight is honest. For some of the professionals we have them test themselves right after regaining consciousness. For LEO and soldiers they have to reassemble their firearm (they disassembled it prior to the choke) and if able get off a shot or dry fire if not on a range. Medical types (EMT and firefighters), door and security staff go right into CPR or some other emergency trauma care that is placed before them while they are out, so that the emergency is what they wake to. Interesting work. For some it is psychologically easier to get choked out than to choke someone out.

    If the person doing the choke is experienced it usually only takes a few seconds, a person doing their first choke it usually takes a bit longer. Waking up is also very quick.

    We have never had any injuries but I always make sure that we have medical folks attending class at the time we decide to do the choking classes just in case. Folks with heart or artery issues, on high blood pressure medications, overweight, history of strokes in family and elderly we keep an extra eye on them and encourage them to tap out rather than go out. We do not let people go out more than once in the class and only do the classes now and then.

    It is safe and useful training done with he right mindset. People risk injury if doing it from standing and not catching the partner, but most report a feeling of euphoria after regaining consciousness. Many talk about dreaming. Some snore and gurgle (the gurgling can freak out some) had one guy talking while out but it was foreign sounding (he does not know foreign languages) and some spasm their legs or arms. It is all OK. People react differently. We usually have someone talking to them as they wake up. This is NOT something inexpereinced folks should try on their own with a buddy in the back yard. Get to a class, find a person that has experience and have them do the work. You do not have to go all the way out to get benefit from the experience. Exposure to what it is like both going out and putting someone out is what is sought, the actual line between tapping and going out is very thin and does not have to be crossed all that often in my opinion.

    Regards
    Brian King
     
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