Chinese sword arts?

Bob Hubbard

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Are there specific styles of Chinese sword arts? Most of what I've seen are books on TaiChi sword, or part of existing systems.
 

Steel Tiger

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There certainly appears to be different schools of swordsmanship if not actual styles. I know of Taiji, Wudang, and Northern Shaolin for just three. I have learned something of a Northern Shaolin form called Three Powers sword, very interesting.

Chinese swordwork also breaks down into two broad, but distinct, groups. The seemingly more common is the dao or knife, you know the one, single-edged, broad tipped. It is generally considered a close-in fighting style. The other group involves the jien or sword. It fights at a distance, intermediate between dao and spear I suppose.

It is interesting to look at the Chinese perception of these weapons. The dao is considered the best of the short or close weapons, the spear the best of the long weapons, and the jien seems to operate on a completely different level.

There is a mystic, not about the jien, like with katana, but concerning the practitioners. It is they who are believed to be able to develop astounding abilities and supernatural powers. I have not seen the same abilities attributed to dao practitioners.
 

dmax999

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Spear and Staff are considered easiest Chines weapons to use (I think 100 days to learn). The dao, or sometimes called the Chinese broadsword, is more difficult (Supposedly 1000 days to learn). The jian is the most difficult of the Chinese weapons to learn (10,000 days).

Where the dao uses power to overcome an opponent (Similar to an "external" MA) the jian is used to redirect and use technique to beat an opponent (Similar to "internal" MA).

Those are the main "theories" I've heard for the two. As for using them you basically use the dao to cut off limbs or make major cuts through an opponent. The jian is typically used for small well placed cuts aiming generally at arteries. The two also have bits of overlap where similar techniques work well with both weapons.

I've learned Northern Shaolin and Tai Chi forms for both. Each weapon is treated similar in both styles I've seen.
 

Steel Tiger

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Spear and Staff are considered easiest Chines weapons to use (I think 100 days to learn). The dao, or sometimes called the Chinese broadsword, is more difficult (Supposedly 1000 days to learn). The jian is the most difficult of the Chinese weapons to learn (10,000 days).

I have heard something similar to this, but it ran along the lines of 100 days for unarmed, 1000 days for the spear, and 10000 days for the sword (jien).

Either way its still over 25 years for the jien. Thats insane.
 

pstarr

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By "10,000 days", they just mean a VERY long time - probably a lifetime. In Chinese terminology (of the past), the phrase "ten thousand" wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally.
 

brianlkennedy

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Hi Bob (great forum by the way)
Yes, there have always been Chinese sword forms that are not tied to an established system. Although there are certainly not statistics on such things, I would strongly suspect that the bulk of sword practice in pre-modern times was not embedded in some system but was rather simply a "stand alone" sword form.

To give you some examples from the past (and all these graphics are taken from historical training manuals, or reprints in my collection—so I am not stealing other peoples graphics.).

Starting back in the Ming dynasty, which is where our earliest surviving training manuals come from, we have for example General Wu Shu's (1611-1695) ([FONT=&#26032]吳殳[/FONT]) book entitled Record of Arms which features double handed sword work that is not tied to any specific system. It was simply a collection of techniques that General Wu found to be useful on the battlefield and which were taught to his troops and later incorporated into his manual.
swordmingwushudouble.gif


Jumping forward quite a bit in time to the middle of the Republican era Huang Yuan Xiou ([FONT=&#26032]黃元秀[/FONT]) and Li Jing Lin ([FONT=&#26032]李景林[/FONT]) did a book entitled The Main Points of Wudang Sword. Although referred to as wudang sword, the set was a creation of Li and had no connection with a preexisting system.

swordpseudowutangrepuera.gif



Turning back to the military, Yin Yu Zhan ([FONT=&#26032]尹玉璋[/FONT]) (1890-1950) developed two short training routines for the Nationalist Army that use the Big Knife. The routines are laid out in his 1933 book Slashing Saber Practice. That weapon is of particular interest to historians as it was used by special Nationalist Army battalions up in the Northeast against the Japanese in World War Two. This weapon was supposed to be the Chinese answer to the Japanese katana.

swordbigknifearmyform.jpg



Huang Bo Nien [FONT=&#26032]黃柏年[/FONT] (1880-1954) developed a system of sword work for the Nationalist Army which he detailed in his 1928 book Xingyi Fist and Weapons Instruction. Although the system was based on Xingyi (Mind Intent Boxing), because of the fact (which you can see from the illustration) that European style sabers were used, Huang had to use his creative powers to develop the system.

swordhuangbonienarmyrepublic.jpg



So there are a couple of examples. One book I could recommend on this area is Dennis Rovere's book which is a translation of Huang Bo Nien's book. Dennis is a very knowledgeable guy and his books are carefully researched.

Take care,
Brian
p.s. Just to prove I know what I am talking about when it comes to Chinese sword arts, here is a picture of me and my wife here in Taiwan playing chess. Just kidding, they are Budaixi, traditional Taiwanese hand puppets…but they do know swords!

pilimovie03_edited.jpg
 

dmax999

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By "10,000 days", they just mean a VERY long time - probably a lifetime. In Chinese terminology (of the past), the phrase "ten thousand" wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally.

10,000 is a popular number in Chinese for a lot (Like Americans would use million or billion), there is a special Chinese character for it. I believe they call the Great Wall the 10,000 mile wall while it is obviously not that long (Even using Chinese miles). Yes, it does mean a long time and not specifically that many days or years.

I think the theory behind saying it is that no one ever truly masters the straight sword.
 

Xue Sheng

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10,000 is a popular number in Chinese for a lot (Like Americans would use million or billion), there is a special Chinese character for it. I believe they call the Great Wall the 10,000 mile wall while it is obviously not that long (Even using Chinese miles). Yes, it does mean a long time and not specifically that many days or years.

I think the theory behind saying it is that no one ever truly masters the straight sword.

The Great wall is about 50,000 km = 100,000li this is the total Length built by all dynasties

In inner Mongolia the GreatWall is 15,000 km (30,000 li)

However I believe it really only covers approximately 6,400 km - 12,800li from end to end
 

kfman

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Hello,
The first drawing with the Ming Dynasty sword is called a Miao Dao. There are some beautiful forms shown on YouTube of this sword.I wonder if anyone teaches this in Los Angeles. The photo of the big sword is a Da Dao and was effective against the Japanese swords because of its weight. I bought a couple of antique swords and have been doing some research. Very interesting stuff. I am now having a custom made sword made in China based on a Ching Dynasty officer's Willow Leaf Sabre.
Jay
 

brianlkennedy

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Hi Jay,
I am not aware of anyone in LA who teaches the miao dao—but I am not really very familiar with my old home state anymore, having lived here in Taiwan for the past 14 years. The weapon is actually kind of rare in terms of finding training routines for it. What happens sometimes is teachers will just put a training routine together from stuff they see in Japanese sword books or modify a big knife or saber form and say it is a miao dao form.

In China, Prof. Ma Ming De ([FONT=&#26032]馬明達[/FONT]) has done quite a bit of research on that weapon and published (in Chinese) two very good articles on it. His work on that weapon came out of his research on General Qi’s ([FONT=&#26032]戚繼光[/FONT]) (1528-1587) book which has a section on that weapon.

A personal favorite of mine is the big knife. I do a Xin-I ([FONT=&#26032]心意[/FONT] Mind Intent Boxing) big knife set and really enjoy it. The big knife has a special place in my heart because it was the last traditional Chinese martial arts weapon to be used on a regular basis in battle.

Take care,
Brian
 

qi-tah

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Hi Jay,
I am not aware of anyone in LA who teaches the miao dao—but I am not really very familiar with my old home state anymore, having lived here in Taiwan for the past 14 years. The weapon is actually kind of rare in terms of finding training routines for it. What happens sometimes is teachers will just put a training routine together from stuff they see in Japanese sword books or modify a big knife or saber form and say it is a miao dao form.

In China, Prof. Ma Ming De ([FONT=&#26032]馬明達[/FONT]) has done quite a bit of research on that weapon and published (in Chinese) two very good articles on it. His work on that weapon came out of his research on General Qi’s ([FONT=&#26032]戚繼光[/FONT]) (1528-1587) book which has a section on that weapon.

A personal favorite of mine is the big knife. I do a Xin-I ([FONT=&#26032]心意[/FONT] Mind Intent Boxing) big knife set and really enjoy it. The big knife has a special place in my heart because it was the last traditional Chinese martial arts weapon to be used on a regular basis in battle.

Take care,
Brian

Is the "big knife" you are talking about the same as the double handed broadsword? I've seen my teacher performing a ba gua form using this weapon which looks great!
Btw, anyone else here practice with deer hook knives? Might be a long bow to consider them "swords" i guess, but what the hey...
 

pete

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Is the "big knife" you are talking about the same as the double handed broadsword? I've seen my teacher performing a ba gua form using this weapon which looks great!
Btw, anyone else here practice with deer hook knives? Might be a long bow to consider them "swords" i guess, but what the hey...
interesting, i've only seen the giant bagua broadsword in demos, and its been used as a single handed weapon, from what i've heard mainly as a training tool and jokingly as compensation for the founder's err, umm, eunich-ism!

i've recently begun working a bit with the deer horn knives, and just trying to keep from gutting myself~ it's actually coming along, and the beauty of these weapons is that your empty handed bagua methods do not change to conform to the weapon, the weapon is supposed to fit within the style.

though not a traditional weapon of the style, i've been fortunate to learn the bagua straight sword, which is very interesting when you consider a straight weapon in a style where everything is a circle~

pete
 

count

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Hello,
The first drawing with the Ming Dynasty sword is called a Miao Dao. There are some beautiful forms shown on YouTube of this sword. I wonder if anyone teaches this in Los Angeles.
Jay
Jason Tsou teaches in Los Angeles. He has a good amount of material including Miao Dao. I prefer his Jian myself. His group is mixing it up fairly regularly in the park by Highlands School @ 400 Casuda Canyon Dr.
in Monterey Park, CA 91754
 

qi-tah

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interesting, i've only seen the giant bagua broadsword in demos, and its been used as a single handed weapon, from what i've heard mainly as a training tool and jokingly as compensation for the founder's err, umm, eunich-ism!

Ha! Very possible!
icon10.gif


i've recently begun working a bit with the deer horn knives, and just trying to keep from gutting myself~ it's actually coming along, and the beauty of these weapons is that your empty handed bagua methods do not change to conform to the weapon, the weapon is supposed to fit within the style.

Yeah, when i started i kept bashing myself on the head with the prongs - it really helps you with the extension of yr empty hand techniques!
icon7.gif
We actually practice all of our palms with and without the DHK... with very minimal modification for the weapon. Actually, you've reminded me of how i used to double up the weapons for conditioning (2 knives in each hand - double the weight) - it feels great when you go back to just the single knife in each hand. So much faster! Hmm... must try that again...

though not a traditional weapon of the style, i've been fortunate to learn the bagua straight sword, which is very interesting when you consider a straight weapon in a style where everything is a circle~

I've seen my teacher practice ba gua straight sword as well. On his website i think there are pics somewhere of ba gua broadsword vs straight sword...(www.taichi-wushu.com.au)
 

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