Children....Good or bad for MA's

[superdave]

What does everyone think?

On one hand, children bring in a lot of money and keep the studios open. On the other hand, teaching children tends to be a factor in the watering down of many arts, just because the teachers can charge big bucks by bumping junior up every 6-8 weeks. This makes the soccer moms happy, because they are seeing a return for their money. The teacher is happy because he can now make his payment on his benz. The student gets a pretty piece of paper and a belt, but no skillls.

It is hard today to find a school, at least in my area, that doesn't have some 5 yo blackbelts running around.

 

[Zepp]

Friend, I believe what you just described is a McDojo. I doubt that any instructor that practices business that way gives quality instruction to adult students either.

It's one thing to give minor promotions to encourage children, but a decent instructor would make certain that a student has at least improved some before promoting them, regardless of their age.

Some adults stick with martial arts and develop good skills, some don't. Same for kids. The biggest problem with teaching kids is dealing with the ones who don't want to be there, or who don't care. That's where advil comes in handy.

Feel free to tear this opinion apart as you see fit.

 

[MartialArtist]

You can go over the VERY basic strikes and some basic grappling maneuvers. Grappling is better for kids as kids are natural grapplers and a lot of the fundamentals don't "hurt" as much. Put some discipline into the kids. I think kids and even teens around the age of 16 are too undisciplined and/or are not ready for real combat training. They get hit, they quit, a new batch comes in, they get hit, and they leave. One out of every 10 even wants to participate after a month. That's why a lot of the things are toned down.

If you have kids, then have junior ranks. Once they turn at a suitable age, then start them at a low level. They may not like it at first but they're technique is usually better than a lot of the older guys and they can accelerate at a much faster pace since their good foundation in the basics. That's just my opinion.

I teach teens as well, but since I am not dependent on them, I go a bit harder than what most McDojos or health club do people do.

 

[MartialArtist]

Solution to the 5 year old BBs? What I'd personally do is pit them up against a normal adult. Of course the normal adult will not hurt them, but the kids usually find that when they hit the person with an attack without using the hips, without doing anything right, and attacking a place where it does not hurt and then gets picked up an enlightening experience. Kid attacks, the adult picks the kid up and gives them a piggy back ride. Very enlightening. Not politically correct, but it knocks them off their pedistool and puts them back onto this planet. The once cocky kid either quits, broken mentally (which I personally would do what I can to bring him back in) or gets broken down, doesn't like it, and trains harder.

 

[anne]

Kids are taught to paint and express creativity even though parents know they won't create a Da Vinci. It's a great advantage they have starting young, if they first picked up a paintbrush at 22 they'd have a lot of learning to do.

Of course they're not going to meet adult standards. There has to be a clearly defined other program for them. There should be junior ranks, of course, and they just should get a taste of what MAs are.

 

[c2kenpo]

Tell a child what YOU WANT them to do and they can and most of the time will do it. Children are seeking approval and the MA are a great way to encourage behavior modification in a lot of children. I don't think the MA for children is for bullies but designed as a teaching / learning tool to improve the quality of life in our children.
Do we really need 10 billion black belts or just a little more respect and self-discipline, self-control from our kids today?
What is your goal for your child? We all want them to be black belts and hopefully with good tutors they will get there.

Journey well
Dave Gunzburg

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Sorry kids, no one under 16. Vhat do you tink dis is? A damn daycare or somzing. The local Mcdojo is 2 blocks down.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Ben22
Sorry kids, no one under 16. Vhat do you tink dis is? A damn daycare or somzing. The local Mcdojo is 2 blocks down.

Make that every freaking street corner :rofl:

 

[theletch1]

Many of you know that I have a houseful of kids and that all but the 3 year old study MA. None of them expect to be able to take down an adult. They learn a different defense against adults. The "flail around screaming this is not my daddy....help!!" technique if confronted with an adult. Each one of my kids understand that the training that they are undergoing now is all in preparation for the adult training when they get old enough. Could they defend themselves against someone their own age and of relatively the same size? Sure. Against me? Not a chance. They know this. I'm all for giving a black belt to a kid ...... so long as it is a JUNIOR black belt. Kids are the future of everything and that includes martial arts. Start them when they are young and the ones that stick with it are the ones that will be the next Ed Parker. There is no easy fix to the McDojo problem or even the dojo daycare thing. That is a situation brought upon the school by the decisions made by the instructor of the school. When I changed schools some one who had had a child enrolled in my new school at one time warned me that the Sensei was "not good with kids." I've never seen a better childrens instructor than this man. Yes, he is hard on the kids. He expects them to be junior martial artists when they are on the mat. He is quick to reprimand BUT he is just as quick to encourage and let them know they are doing things correctly. The kids that are only there so that mom can have one more notch on her "my kid is so involved in activities" belt don't make it long. Mommy gets ticked the first time the kid gets called down and pulls the kid. As a result the kids that are left are there because they (and to an extent the parents) are taking MA seriously. As for taking a hit and leaving, it's the same situation as with the discipline. Weed out the weak and the strong will continue.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Ben22
Sorry kids, no one under 16. Vhat do you tink dis is? A damn daycare or somzing. The local Mcdojo is 2 blocks down.

Here's a quote from www.shaolin.com, talking about the training at the Shaolin temples.

"Entry was between ages five and seven. Graduation was at the age of at least twenty-two. And every bit was part of a long, hard life."

I have no problem teaching kids the martial arts. MA has a lot of benefits that go far beyond merely punching and kicking. Kids today need all the exercise options they can get. 5-year-old black belts? No way. But they can sure learn a lot until they're ready to get a black belt. Think where you'd be right now if you had started at that early age? Bruce Lee, Brandon Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, all started at a very early age.

WhiteBirch

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let me first recommend getting copy of Larry Tatum's recently-reissued, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon." I should go with disclosure--one of my students did nearly all the poses for basics and forms, and I am inordinately proud of him.

I'm with the last poster. Kids are a problem, and the McDojo always hovers, and rich/middle-class parents with over-scheduled brats...ick...

But I've also seen, and been lucky enough to teach, some absolutely remarkable kids. Hell, one of them took the evil Clyde out of a test...and this particular kid? I have never seen an adult work harder in a lesson...

But we live in a society that seems to need to teach narcissism...every time I see a really rotten brat, I have this flash of desire to go slap their parents and Dan Quayle up...fortunately, it passes.

 

[Master of Blades]

It all depends.....I'm a kid and I started when I was a wee 13 (Been doing it about three nearly four years now) and I'm gonna start by saying this is what I have noticed in the U.K only.

Down here most Organisations that I have seen are not highly money based like in the U.S.A. I also think that the whole kids stuff also depends on the art. I do Kali, which is nearly all weapon based.....so I cant really be not taught the whole art without a high chance of chopping a toe off etc. Sure at the beginning I was pretty poor and didnt put much effort into what I was doing, hoping that seeing as my Dad was the teacher I wouldnt have to. Unfortuantly my dad wasnt thinking the same way I was and brought me to the front of the class. After the umpthteenth time of having my hands and fingers mashed I learnt that I have to do this right or not at all. I dont think you can really water down the Filipino arts (I'm saying that as a student, I dont teach) but there are arts you can teach the basics of. I think its all down to the teacher really. I've been training for nearly 4 years. Took me a whole year to earn my first belt. I train once a week for four hours and everyday for an hour in my room. My fingers are pretty mashed up and it takes a lot for me to feel any kinda of real pain in my forearms. My Dad now has me and two other students take the new students and teach them the basics. Were told not to go easy, no matter how old (We never get any under the age of 16 anyways) and as Theletch1 said, weed out the week. Kids are good, teachers who cant teach kids but still do for money are bad

 

[Shinzu]

i dont think teaching kids is a bad idea. infact it gives them many valuable lessions. what i dont believe in is teaching kids very agressive striking moves that can harm other kids. they truly are not ready for that yet. the basics are fine and basic forms also, but you must remember that they are only kids. teach them only what they are able to handle. and by all means do not promote a kid to black belt!

 

[redfang]

I don't particularly care if kids are caoable of learning MA, if it's good for them etc. I work with kids all day long, last thing I want is for them to be running around during a class. Perhaps there are disciplined children out there. I just don't believe in them. The school that I attend has seperate classes for adults and children and that's the way I like it.
:disgust: :miffer:

 

[theletch1]

The school that I attend has seperate classes for adults and children and that's the way I like it.

I think most of the schools that I've ever visited have had seperate classes. I've only been to one school that trained adults and kids in the same class and there is no way that I could concentrate enough to train. The point of the thread, however, is not whether or not to train them with the adults but whether or not to train them at all and to what extent. I don't believe you can train effectively in self defense with children in the same line. I strongly believe that children SHOULD be afforded the opportunity to train but in a setting that is most beneficial to every one in the school and IMHO that is a class of peers by an instructor who believes in what they are doing not who believes in what the parents are paying.

 

[TKDman]

I agree with most of you about this. I would start a kid out at 14-15 at the max. It really depends on the kid... does he/she go through lots of hobbies? Is he/she serious? Is he/she humble? Is he/she not willing to quit after once insident?

I started at the age of 17 myself. Older kids learn far more about the Martial Arts, and can effectivly use it.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

I should clarify my take on this. Training children is ok if you get the long term commitment that is needed anyway. Giving the child the foundation he/she needs to build skill in the future is fine. In this society that may be hard to do when soccer moms insist that they see a new belt every 2 months. After all they are paying good money

Also there are aspects of the martial arts that I feel young children should not be exposed to untill they mature. Because of all of these reasons. It is hard to find this kind of commitment so I generally dont train kids. Im not saying I would never. Besides, there are many activities that build some of the more positive characteristics that parents are after anyway.