Chen and Yang styles are different?

[marlon]

And I do not know why I did no tpost this much sooner

Chen and Yang styles are different? You be the judge

I beleive both of the Chen forms are Chen Xiaowang

Cxw laojia Yilu (old form 1)

Cxw laojia erlu (old form 2)

Yang Jun

Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 1 part, 103 form

Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 2 part, 103 form

i love the chen forms!!! they remind me of the sword form in the movie crouching tiger hidden dragon.

i was told by a Yang student who has been studying for 3 yearts that Yang Jun does not do the form this way any more. there are many ' corrections'
Seggio learns in China well now Wisconson or Washington...i do not remember where he moved to...Yang Jun i mean. Seggio learns directly fron the Yang family

marlon

 

[marlon]

I cannot accept the Yang Chengfu quote as accurate because I have no confirmation that it is. To discuss something that I do not know is valid or not is to me pointless. We could just as easily have a discussion about what would the world be like if the Yeti was proven to exist. So therefore I will not discuss a quote as accurate when I am not sure that it is.

As I have already said, I have not heard that he said this before and I also have said that he was working on a Yang Style fast form, (which was finished by his student Tung Ying Chieh) therefore I do not think that he believed that was it for Yang style. If he did then, at least to me, he would have seen no need for the development of a fast form.

If this is a quote from the Yang Family I do not agree with it and in an attempt to be diplomatic I will not comment further on this in an open post. I would be happy to PM you my thoughts on this if you so desire. (And no I am not angry or upset in anyway just attempting to be diplomatic for a change, something new for me)

And all martial arts evolve, some for the better, some for the worse.

any idea why a fast form has not been created by the Yang family?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

any idea why a fast form has not been created by the Yang family?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Nope, I have my suspicions but that is all.

All I know is what my Sifu told me about his Sifu Tung.

Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu were discussing a fast form and Chengfu believed one was needed. They discussed it in great detail and started work on it when Chengfu died so Tung completed it. That is all I know.

For the most part it is very similar to the postures in the long form but there are some differences in the postures and there are a couple of postures that are not in the long form that are in the short form. And it is shorter.

 

[Xue Sheng]

i love the chen forms!!! they remind me of the sword form in the movie crouching tiger hidden dragon.

i was told by a Yang student who has been studying for 3 yearts that Yang Jun does not do the form this way any more. there are many ' corrections'
Seggio learns in China well now Wisconson or Washington...i do not remember where he moved to...Yang Jun i mean. Seggio learns directly fron the Yang family

marlon

Chen forms are so cool

And I think Yang Jun is in Washington


And thanks for answering my question.

 

[grydth]

grydth,

The Taoist Tai Chi Society are a registered charity. Their Instructors teach for no fee. You can become an "Instructor" in as little as 18 months of starting to learn and be let loose on an unsupecting public. Instructors are expressly forbidden to take part in any other form of Tai Chi or to discuss or participate in any form of martial expression. Having said that, they purport to teach Sword, Sabre, Xing-Yi and Liu Ho Pa Fa. (Without any martial intention??????) :erg: Although these are usually taught under the auspices of sister organisations Fung Loy Kock and Gei Pang. The founder the late Moy Lin Shin claimed to be a Taoist monk from mainland China but spoke Cantonese. It was originally claimed that the form they taught was developed by Moy from ancient teachings he received in his monastery. However they now concede that it is the Yang family long form modified slightly by Moy. You are required to join the Society and pay a monthly fee whether you attend classses or not.

I could write more, but I think the above says enough to give you a flavour of what they are doing.

Very best wishes

I see there was discussion of this group here on a thread in 2003. The website is even more horrifying than you let on...

A question which arose then, and is still sound now: Why is it that fine and qualified teachers of traditional Tai Chi often have only 5 or 10 students, when this questionable society, and the even more odious Tai Chi Chih, are apparently packing them in by the thousands? What does this say about the state of the planet? (I wonder if this should be its own thread or if the old one should be revived)

 

[Xue Sheng]

I see there was discussion of this group here on a thread in 2003. The website is even more horrifying than you let on...

A question which arose then, and is still sound now: Why is it that fine and qualified teachers of traditional Tai Chi often have only 5 or 10 students, when this questionable society, and the even more odious Tai Chi Chih, are apparently packing them in by the thousands? What does this say about the state of the planet? (I wonder if this should be its own thread or if the old one should be revived)

That topic has been a thread more than once on MT.

I have stated in past posts, in reference to this that 2 schools in my area both CMA one has a lot of students but the teacher although well trained in Wushu does not make his students do forms correctly and he lets them teach when they are not qualified while the Wing Chun school down the street has fewer students but teaches real martial arts CMA.

Also this first school has a great number of Tai Chi students who collect forms and do them badly while my Sifu. Up until 3 years ago, never had more than 20 students at a time between 2 classes. He has changed his class a bit (which I am not happy about, but that was another post) and he has gained more students, but he still ahs nowhere near the number of Tai Chi students the teacher at the first school has.

It is, most unfortunately, a fact of training in America. Many do not want to get hurt and training a real CMA could get you hurt therefore they go the easy route, particularly in Tai Chi. My most recent CMC instructor teaches martial applications and push hands and he also has fewer students that the first school. A sad but true fact, at least in my neck of the woods.

But this is going WAY off post here and it would be best done in a revival of an older post or stating a new one.

 

[marlon]

does anyone know the reason for the change from the alternating fast slow of the chen forms and the early yang forms to the all slow of today's yang forms as taught by Yang chengfu?

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

why choose yang over a chen style? Other than availablity, the chen style looks more like a martial art although both are excellent martial art systems. I hope to avoid any bashing and just have people share thier thoughts and opinions, keeping in mind that a bad experience does not make a style bad.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

why choose yang over a chen style? Other than availablity, the chen style looks more like a martial art although both are excellent martial art systems. I hope to avoid any bashing and just have people share thier thoughts and opinions, keeping in mind that a bad experience does not make a style bad.

Respectfully,
marlon

If I had good Sifu’s of both styles available to me I would choose Chen Style, no big reason I just like it better for me, it just fits me better that is all. I tend to like the explosiveness of Chen but I also rather enjoy the Yang Style fast form too.

I trained Chen for a bit several years ago but due to the lack of a Sifu I had to stop. I then found my Yang style Sifu and that is what I have trained for many years now. I did return to Chen briefly rather recently with a group that is starting up that is associated with Chen Zhenglei but I stopped. Nothing against them they are working hard to get a school going but it was just too basic and to slow for what I was looking for.

And you are right both are rather good martial arts you are likely to find more Yang schools that don't teach martial arts than Chen schools but then you are likely to find more Yang schools than Chen schools so that is not surprising.

I also like Wu style and Zhaobao style better than Yang to, they also just fit me better but there are no Sifu’s for either close enough for me to train.

I am not saying anything against Yang style I have great respect for true Yang Stylist and my Sifu it is just a matter of what feels better to me.

 

[marlon]

thanks. I did not know there was a yang fast form. Is there any footage of it? Also, the foot stomping in the chen forms, i have see it upright and in low stances other than the obvious, what is the reason - application for this? Thank you

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

thanks. I did not know there was a yang fast form. Is there any footage of it? Also, the foot stomping in the chen forms, i have see it upright and in low stances other than the obvious, what is the reason - application for this? Thank you

marlon

The fast form that I do comes from discussion between Yang Changfu and Tung Ying Chieh. Chengfu died before it was completed and Tung finished the form so it is likely rare and only in the Chengfu -> Tung Lineage. And I have not seen a video of it. There is a video on YouTube of Vincent Chu doing a Yang Fast form but it is very different that what I do. Tung Ying Chieh also made up his own fast form after that but it too looks very different. So technically from Tung come a Yang fast form and a Tung fast form.

The Chen foot stomp applications. Well I imagine there are many, some for fajing and qi, but Chen Zhenglei can crush stones with it and I would sure hate for my foot to be under that.

 

[marlon]

HOLY CRAP!! crush stones!!!

do you have any footage of the fast form?

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

HOLY CRAP!! crush stones!!!

do you have any footage of the fast form?

marlon

Vincent Chu's fast form

But this is not the fast form from Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Chieh that I do sorry I can find no video of it.

 

[marlon]

is this a yang based form?

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

is this a yang based form?

marlon

Vincent was trained by his father Gin Soon Chu who was trained by Yang Zhenming who was Yang Chengfu's oldest son. But to be honest I do not know the origin of his fast form. BUt he teaches it a Yang 42 form.

Per my sifu the Yang style fast form that I do had its origins with Yang Chengfu snd he discussed this a great length with TUng Ying Chieh and they did begin working on it just before Chengfu died. Also per my sifu he did not think that Yang Zhenming ever learned this form. Although his school and Tung's school were very close.

 

[marlon]

Vincent Chu's fast form

But this is not the fast form from Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Chieh that I do sorry I can find no video of it.

i finally had the time to see it. Thank you. Is this similar to the Tung fast form. I note although it is sped up there are not any great displays of obvious favjing. Also, he seems bent at the waist a little and looks down at times, do you know the reasoning behind this?
thank you for taking the time to discuss these things with me and increase my knowledge

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

i finally had the time to see it. Thank you. Is this similar to the Tung fast form. I note although it is sped up there are not any great displays of obvious favjing. Also, he seems bent at the waist a little and looks down at times, do you know the reasoning behind this?
thank you for taking the time to discuss these things with me and increase my knowledge

respectfully,
Marlon

The Yang fast form that I do does not look like Vincent Chu's.

My fast form has some similarity to the Long Yang form but there are some forms in it that I have not come across in any other yang form and it is shorter than the Yang Long form.

I once saw a video of it on some website out of Beijing but I cannot find it now. If I do I will post it for you.

Much of my problem I had originally with the Yang style I do is separating what is Tung from what is Yang. However per my Sifu this is a Yang fast form as thought up in the mind if Chengfu and developed mostly by Tung after much discussion between Chengfu and Tung. As I said Chengfu died before it was finished.

There is also a Tung fast form and Tung Jain form but my sifu has made it clear to me that those do not come from Chengfu or the Yang family.

I did post some pistures once on MT of Tung and a couple of the stills are of Tung in teh fast form. If I find them again I will post them and let you know which stills they are.

 

[marlon]

thank you XS

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tung Ying Chieh
http://www.ttopa.com/tyc.htm

Of the top 6 photos could be either the Yang slow or fast form. However I am not sure what the photo in the bottom row in the middle is from, that could be Tung's fast form

The bottom 7 photos

Looking at it like this

1 2 3
4
5 6 7​

1 could be Yang slow or fast
2 is Yang slow
3 is Yang slow
4 is Yang fast
5 is Yang fast
6 is YAng fast but could also be slow
7 could be Tung's fast form

 

[East Winds]

Xue Xheng,

I agree about the top six photographs coming from the Yang Long form. They are 1. Turn and Kick : 2. Step Up to raise hands : 3. Chop with Fist : 4. Press from Grasp Birds tail : 5. Don't know??????? : 6. Fan through Back.

Very best wishes