Check out this sword kata...

[Makalakumu]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3jKCIliUuaY&search=tang soo do

I watched this and it kept going and going and going and I said to myself, "someone is going to stab themselves doing that form."

I often wonder where stuff like this comes from...

In the years that I have been training, I had the incredible opportunity to train with a 5th dan in Takeda Ryu Aikijutsu. His sword work, and martial arts in general, are amazing because, IMHO, it is training passed down from a time when people were learning to use a sword in actual combat.

Take a look at this clip, it is similar to what I have seen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys&mode=related&search=

With that being said, its not just the kicks in that form that are out of place. There is alot more, like the swinging the blade around the head and the figure eights, and the footwork, you name it. I can hardly believe it.

Forms like these increase the marketability of a martial art, but they do not increase a student's actual skill with a weapon. IMHO, I wish that more people would put as much time in creating new forms as others who have put together something that shows something that they actually know about and master.

This, IMHO, would go a long way towards actually preserving an art's martial skill.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Andrew Green]

I got nothing against flashy forms... but that wasn't flashy. I got nothing against traditional forms... but that wasn't traditional. I got nothings against good sword work... but that wasn't good sword work.

For all the criticism flashy stuff gets I think this is the real problem. People taking there Karate/TKD/Tang So do and doing it with a sword in there hands and calling it "real swordwork", wouldn't suprise me to find out it was a live blade either, as that would make it more "realistic"

 

[arnisador]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3jKCIliUuaY&search=tang%20soo%20do

Ludicrous.

 

[Jimi]

Lord have mercy! PEACE

 

[pgsmith]

I got nothing against flashy forms... but that wasn't flashy. I got nothing against traditional forms... but that wasn't traditional. I got nothings against good sword work... but that wasn't good sword work.

The first clip is Haedong Gumdo, pretty silly stuff from a Japanese sword art perspective. The second clip is Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei, and I believe he is performing Tamiya ryu, a koryu art. He is very good, and quite traditional. More information about Kuroda sensei can be found here ... http://jbull.home.texas.net/biography.html

 

[stone_dragone]

Didn't get to the second clip yet. The first one looked to my non-sword initiated eye, as was said earlier, that they took TSD techniques and added a sharp pointy metal stick.

Semi entertaining form, from a contemporary perspective.

 

[Swordlady]

The first clip is Haedong Gumdo, pretty silly stuff from a Japanese sword art perspective. The second clip is Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei, and I believe he is performing Tamiya ryu, a koryu art. He is very good, and quite traditional. More information about Kuroda sensei can be found here ... http://jbull.home.texas.net/biography.html

Hm...interesting. I don't know anything about the Korean sword arts; maybe they are meant to be "flashier" than the Japanese sword arts. *shrug*

The second clip was more enjoyable. I never heard of Tamiya ryu before.

 

[soul_sword34]

Here is a real sword art that uses some flair.

http://www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo/hdgdvids.html

 

[soul_sword34]

Hm...interesting. I don't know anything about the Korean sword arts; maybe they are meant to be "flashier" than the Japanese sword arts. *shrug*

The second clip was more enjoyable. I never heard of Tamiya ryu before.

The first clip was BS

 

[mtabone]

The first clip is Haedong Gumdo, pretty silly stuff from a Japanese sword art perspective. The second clip is Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei, and I believe he is performing Tamiya ryu, a koryu art. He is very good, and quite traditional. More information about Kuroda sensei can be found here ... http://jbull.home.texas.net/biography.html

The first clip is not Haedong Gumdo. It is a World Tang Soo Do form.

Haedong Gumdo is not like that at all....

M.Tabone

 

[Makalakumu]

WTSD may do this form, but I think it was originally in Kuk Sul Won. From there, I do not know where it originates.

 

[soul_sword34]

here's a bunch of real Gumdo vids

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=gumdo&search_type=search_videos&search=Search

 

[Senjojutsu]

The second clip was more enjoyable. I never heard of Tamiya ryu before.

Some website references:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/gsjsa_tamiya.htm

http://www.ustamiyaryu.org/

Tamiya Heibei Shigemasa, along with founding his own ryu, is considered the second headmaster within the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu/Muso Shinden Ryu iaijutsu lineage founded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu.

Unfortunately (for me) there is only one iai form demonstrated during that entire second video.

 

[pgsmith]

The first clip is not Haedong Gumdo. It is a World Tang Soo Do form.

Sorry for the misinformation. Either way, it is still Korean sword stuff that's sorta silly from a Japanese sword art perspective. Not saying there aren't perhaps reasons for it, just that it is.

 

[Swordlady]

Sorry for the misinformation. Either way, it is still Korean sword stuff that's sorta silly from a Japanese sword art perspective. Not saying there aren't perhaps reasons for it, just that it is.

The Korean sword arts may look *very* different from the Japanese sword arts, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "silly". I mean, outsiders could very easily call most JSA katas "boring". Just a thought.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Well... most JSA sword kata's are boring to watch, particularly to the uninitiated. The same can be said of watching golf. Even up at the higher end it's boring as heck to watch, but playing is something else entirely.

Context is important, and within the context of JSA many of the KSA videos I've seen is full of extraneous seemingly showy movement. Within the context of JSAs. I'm sure that within the context of KSAs the movement makes perfect sense.

 

[howard]

The Korean sword arts may look *very* different from the Japanese sword arts, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "silly". I mean, outsiders could very easily call most JSA katas "boring". Just a thought.

Very nice point, thank you.

In addition, comments like this unfortunately reinforce the stereotype that elitism is inherent in JMA, even though most of us know that it isn't.

 

[pgsmith]

The Korean sword arts may look *very* different from the Japanese sword arts, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "silly". I mean, outsiders could very easily call most JSA katas "boring". Just a thought.

I agree with Charles in that almost everybody considers JSA kata boring. "Like watching paint dry" was how one senior exponent put it. I did say from a Japanese sword arts perspective. All of the things that could possibly be gained from antics such as cutting fruit can be had in the traditional Japanese arts, but without all of the showboating which is considered, well ... silly. I realize that it is intended to liven things up, but that is pretty much the antithesis of the traditional Japanese sword arts.

In addition, comments like this unfortunately reinforce the stereotype that elitism is inherent in JMA, even though most of us know that it isn't.

No, it isn't in Japanese martial arts in general. Elitism does tend to be a part of the koryu arts though. Not purposely elitist, but it tends to be inherent in the training. These schools have survived from one head to their successor for hundreds of years. Those that weren't effective died out as their students got killed by superior swordsmen. Therefore, those that remain are the ones that proved to be better than the thousands of other schools that are now dead. Those that practice these koryu arts know in our heads that our ryu is not inherently superior to any other, however, centuries of tradition tells the heart otherwise. It is much the same way that a graduate of M.I.T. may not be any better an engineer than a graduate of Podunk State College. He may even know in his head that the Podunk State graduate is smarter and a better engineer. In his heart though, he will still feel superior because he is from M.I.T. even if he knows it's irrational.

In my opinion, that's where all of the cries of elitism come from.

 

[Charles Mahan]

I agree with Charles in that almost everybody considers JSA kata boring. "Like watching paint dry" was how one senior exponent put it.

Ha! I've had an instructor say it should be not like watching paint dry, but rather like watching dry paint.

 

[howard]

I agree with Charles in that almost everybody considers JSA kata boring. "Like watching paint dry" was how one senior exponent put it. I did say from a Japanese sword arts perspective. All of the things that could possibly be gained from antics such as cutting fruit can be had in the traditional Japanese arts, but without all of the showboating which is considered, well ... silly. I realize that it is intended to liven things up, but that is pretty much the antithesis of the traditional Japanese sword arts.

Paul, even though I study a nominally Korean sword art, I find many JSA kata very nice to watch. One has to look beneath the surface of the basic movements to appreciate all of the subtleties in every little movement. There are so many things going on in just drawing and cutting horizontally from seiza that you could probably write a book about it.

A lot of people just don't appreciate how many years of practice are needed to perform even a simple kata at a high level.

Elitism does tend to be a part of the koryu arts though. Not purposely elitist, but it tends to be inherent in the training. These schools have survived from one head to their successor for hundreds of years. Those that weren't effective died out as their students got killed by superior swordsmen. Therefore, those that remain are the ones that proved to be better than the thousands of other schools that are now dead. Those that practice these koryu arts know in our heads that our ryu is not inherently superior to any other, however, centuries of tradition tells the heart otherwise. It is much the same way that a graduate of M.I.T. may not be any better an engineer than a graduate of Podunk State College. He may even know in his head that the Podunk State graduate is smarter and a better engineer. In his heart though, he will still feel superior because he is from M.I.T. even if he knows it's irrational.

Thanks for that context. btw, I hope you understand that I wasn't accusing you of elitism.