Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Oct 3, 2019.
That video says it all.
I have been watching these clips, and I get that they are at reduced speed for various purposes, but what seems lost in them is that the opponent is not going to "give" you their hand. Most the videos show the hand/arm that is being chased just easily dropping low. It will not. It is usually going to tense up even more and stay largely in a guard-like position of some sort. making what you do after "chasing hands" paramount.
I am sure they are out there; I would be great to see some videos of 'chasing hands' at speed and real application.
Theory is great and necessary but these videos are very misleading.
This is some sort of unusual situational fighting. Who in their right mind is going to reach out with their hands so you can reach out with your hands to touch their hands? Just not going to happen.
Isnt there a bait where someone holds their hand out wanting you to try and grab it or do something with it, then they punch you with the other one as soon as you act on it? Its a kind of weird using your hand to range and also as a trap. (granted it can backfire, like most things can)
I swear i have heard of it/seen it.
One of the things about almost any technique is that it's easy to beat if you know what's coming. You have to have different techniques to respond to different energies your opponent gives. If your opponent isn't expecting this, it can work. If they are, or if they tense up, then you read that energy and do something else.
The problem with a lot of videos (especially those posted by @Kung Fu Wang , which are very brief demonstrations of individual techniques, is that you don't have the time to go into all the ifs, ands, or buts.
If I were to pull down my opponent's guard, and they resisted, then:
My Taekwondo training says to pull their guard up and roundhouse kick to the ribs
My Wrestling training says to go low and sweep
My Hapkido training says to switch to a Figure-4 lock (shoulder lock)
Just because a move is beatable, doesn't mean it's a bad move. It just means you need to have drilled it to the point you know where the failure points are, and how to respond to them.
Have you trained it?
Assume both you and I have right sides forward.
- keep moving toward your right side (my left side), your back left hand won't be able to reach me.
- push your right arm to your left (my right), your body will spin to your left. Your body rotation will prevent you from punching me with your left (in order for you to punch me with your left back hand, your body will need to spin to your right).
In MA, your bait can be a 2 edges sword. Whoever has more experience in this area will be the winner.
The easiest set up is you punch at your opponent and force him to block. The following "hand chasing" (as shown in the following clip) had happened just few years ago.
A: I think the WC Bong Shou is a bad idea.
B: I disagree! Punch me.
- A throws right punches. B blocks with right Bong Shou (wrong Bong).
- A slides right hand back and pulls on B's right wrist. A's left hand pushes up on B's right elbow joint.
- B drops right elbow and changes his Bong Shou into Tan Shou.
- A's left hand takes over the right wrist holed.
- B punches left hand toward A's face.
- A uses left hand to grab A's left wrist and Jams B's left arm against B's right arm.
- The clinch has been established and the striking game is over.
I like the drill. I would love to see something like this done in real life at full speed/intent. As long as it is not being done on me.
I do this all the time for the very reason you stated. Let's do a scenario.
If I reach my hand out, will you return the favor or will you keep your hands in guard. Will you try to punch my while my hand is outstretched? Either way that works for me.
If you keep your hands in guard position then I can keep you at bay just by using my hand.
If you try to punch me, then I will redirect your punch even if I have a slower reaction time. The advantage is that my hand is already half way to your face, while your punch has to travel twice the distance which gives me more than enough time to redirect a punch.
If you choose to ignore my hand then I'll just use it to punch you in the face. After all it's half way to you already.
I think most people used the outstretched hand to keep their opponent's body back. If my hand is out stretched, then I'm not thinking about trying to keep you back and away from me. I'm thinking of how I can interrupt your strikes and attack the face. I use my outstretched hand like a "feeler" or "sensor" to help me pick up your movements before those movement's hit full speed.
I guess this works for me, because it forces my opponent to deal with my lead hand before they can actually get to my face or body.
Here's a boxing version of what I described
An outstretched hand it a Kali fighter's dream. Reach out and I'm going to cut your wrist. Reach out again and I am going to cut you at the bend of the elbow and so on and so forth. I will take whatever you offer that is closest. Even in TKD we don't offer up too much as bait. Our setups are usually about getting you in a biased position so that it can be exploited without taking a chance on giving up an arm/leg or an opening. Much like a boxer. That is the idea anyway.
When you try to deal with your opponent's extended arm, you are not thinking about punching to his head. That's exactly the game that your opponent wants to play - a grip fight game (not punching game).
When your opponent's hand can reach on top of your elbow joint, the clinch has been established. The wrestling game will start after that.
It's always a good idea to have your hands to be close to your opponent's head than to have your opponent's hands to be close to your head.
I may buy that, but need to chew on it a little.
I prefer neither in a neutral/near neutral position. I do buy my hands on versus their hands on Me if it is a one or the other scenario.
A lot of it comes back to intent and opportunity again. If I am horsing around in the back yard it is all for fun and outcome doesn't really matter.
Oh yea, this is unless you are in my family. We cannot talk about something as innocuous changing diapers for our 1 month old niece without it getting competitive.
If the intent is real world where I don't know the guy at all, I am not giving him my hand, no matter how fast I think I may be. This is coming from a guy who thinks he used to be the king of setups, albeit in a different strata.
In this case the weapon is extended versus the limb being extended. There are some exceptions to this depending on the type of blade. And how one fights with a knife.
To be completely honest, you can go back and fourth all day, or for infinity with what you would if person does X,Y,Z and what they would do to counter your counter so fourth. There are too many variables to cover them all, and thats not counting the slight differences.
Everything is a double edged sword, if you attack you leave yourself open for a counter attack, and if you don't attack the other person is open to hit you with flurries and you dont have much option to strike back until they stop striking etc.
And dont forget who ever has luck on their side also tends to win. (by the way i dont disagree with any of that)
Also if we bring weapons into this im bringing a AK. (of course with a bayonet fixed, i do have class)
- I attack you.
- You escape or counter.
- I escape or counter your counter.
- You escape or counter my counter.
When you attack me, I either escape and move out of your way, or I move in and take advantage on your attack.
Is that the natural of "fighting"?
How to apply "chasing hands" strategy?
In uniform stances (both have right side forward):
- Your right hand move toward his right wrist.
- Your left hand move toward his right elbow joint.
In mirror stances (you have right side forward, your opponent has left side forward):
- Your right hand move toward his left wrist.
- Your left hand move toward on top of his left elbow joint.
This plan can make the fight simple. Your thought?
Separate names with a comma.