Chang Moo Kwan?

KarateMomUSA

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I have that book, the 1959 one.
Did you ever get the history section of this book translated?

This also has the 1st 4 Korean TKD Patterns in it that were ever devised: HwaRang, ChungMu, UlJi & SamIl.
This was the 1st ever book written on TKD. It was of course authored by Gen Choi, hence another reason why some consider him the founder of TKD
 

Archtkd

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"Master"? I'm just a 3rd class instructor. :)

GM Hwa Chong, former President of the USTU and Professor Emeritus at University of MI is from the Kang Duk Won. He is one of the most friendly gentlemen you will ever meet. I think he is retired but you could probably contact Naji at the U of M TKD club and get further historical information. That club has been around a long time.

GM Eugene Humesky is Chang Moo Kwan. His organization is the Universal TKD Brotherhood, I believe. I haven't seen him for several years so he may be totally retired. Brian Vancise who is very active on MT may have contact information.

Good luck!

Thank you sir. Your humbleness is well noted.
 

mastercole

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensei85
Awesome! Originally I trained in the Chang Moo Kwan lineage of TKD, under Chang Soo Lim./quote]

Very neat! My original instructor's instructor was GM BC Yu out of Ann Arbor who was Chang Moo Kwan. I believe he helped sponsor GM CS Lim (have to ask his daughter Jaewon about that). GM Yu was in charge of the MI region for the ITF back then (1975-77 or so).
Master Miles: This is an ancient thread, but I was wondering? Do you know any old school Chang Moo Kwan masters in the Midwest that went the WTF route. Duk Gun Kwon is one, but do you know others? I'm interested in learning more about the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu/Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won Kwan curricula especially the elements that had the greatest Chuan Fa influence.

I think it was 2008 I ran into GM Chang Soo Lim's son at Jidokwan VP Kap Sik Kim's Dojang at Itaewon, just across from the Jidokwan Headquarters, next to the blue Mosque in the Islamic section of Itaewon. He said that his father's wish was for him to go to Korea and live for a while to learn more about Korea, so he ended up as a Sabum in GM Kim's dojang.
 

mastercole

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Thanks a million. I've had two Korean masters with strong YMCA Kwon Bop Bu and Kang Duk Won influence, but I was never able to tap their knowledge about their previous training. Both are now Kukki stylists, and of one of them -- Sun Park in Cincinnati -- has a father who was third generation Kang Duk Won and was very close to the early Kukkiwon piooners.

I meet Master Sun Park once, I did not know what Kwan he was from though. All the Kang Dik Won masters I have meet were all supporters of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, including the late, past Kang Duk Won president, GM LEE Kum Hong. GM Lee pasted away this past November.

I have heard that GM PARK Chul Hee is not involved in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.
 

puunui

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I have heard that GM PARK Chul Hee is not involved in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

I heard he had issues with Dr. Kim, who he considered his junior in the ROK Army. I spoke to GM Park a few times over the telephone when he was living in Modesto, California back in the late 90s. He speaks fluent english.
 

tkd1964

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I am unclear as to what Kwan GM Humesky is. He told me that he first learned Taekwondo under GM SHIM Sang Kyu, which would make him a Moo Duk Kwan member. But I know that GM LEE Nam Suk used to visit Michigan frequently so perhaps that is how he became a Chang Moo Kwan member. GM Humesky is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan and he asked me once a long time ago what he needed to do to get promoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan. I told him that he would have to test in Korea at the Kukkiwon and demonstrate his knowledge of the 8th Dan promotion requirements, which includes writing a paper. He never spoke about testing for Kukkiwon 8th Dan again.

When I visited Master Humesky years ago, he had his 9th Dan certificate from GM Nam Suk Lee. I don't remember the date though.

Taekwon!!
 

tkd1964

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Looking on Master Humesky's site it says he received his 9th Dan in Chang Moo Kwan on October 5th, 1994, his Honorary 9th dan Kukkiwon February 19th, 2004.

Taekwon!!

P.S. As a side note, his 1st Dan in ITF is A-1-47. His Chang Moo Kwan is 6192 dated July 4, 1968.
 

mastercole

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Looking on Master Humesky's site it says he received his 9th Dan in Chang Moo Kwan on October 5th, 1994, his Honorary 9th dan Kukkiwon February 19th, 2004.

Taekwon!!

P.S. As a side note, his 1st Dan in ITF is A-1-47. His Chang Moo Kwan is 6192 dated July 4, 1968.

Kukkiwon disagrees with his claim of 8th and 9th Dan from Kukkiwon, honorary of otherwise. They say he never tested for 8th or 9th, and never received such a rank from them, in standard or honorary form.
 

Archtkd

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I meet Master Sun Park once, I did not know what Kwan he was from though. All the Kang Dik Won masters I have meet were all supporters of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, including the late, past Kang Duk Won president, GM LEE Kum Hong. GM Lee pasted away this past November.

I have heard that GM PARK Chul Hee is not involved in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

Interesting. I lived in Cincinnati from June 1999 - July 2002 and that's when I trained with Sun Park. His father retired and never taught Taekwondo in the U.S although he attended all the promotion tests we had. He was/is a very humble man and I always wished he would have taught us even just one class. His son Sun Park, used to tell us he was still very, very fast.
 

rmclain

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These are known as "Tightening Ways" drills. I don't what they are called in Korea. The drills you describe are the first two. There are twelve of the partner drills, with some of the later drills involving leg sweeps and grabbing.

R. McLain




What I recall the best — and still use on occasion to this day*— are hand/forearm conditioning drills that also train putting "snap" into technique at the last moment.

The drills are practiced with a partner. Each parter does an inverted knife hand strike meeting the partner's strike followed by a regular knife hand strike. Then the two same two strikes are repeated with the other hand.

So, (palm up) right, (palm down) right, (palm up) left, (palm down) left, (palm up) right, (palm down) right, (palm up) left, (palm down) left, (palm up) right, (palm down) right, (palm up) left, (palm down) left, (palm up) right, (palm down) right, (palm up) left, (palm down) left, etc. etc.

with the goal is to get faster and smoother while maintaining focus and snap.


Another was low blocks (partner's arms meeting at the blocking points) inside right forearm, outside right forearm, inside left forearm, outside left forearm (etc.)

Great drill, but only for those who don't mind a little pain.
 

CMKJeon-Sa

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I know this is extremely late to answer this question. The difference between Chang Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do and other Tae Kwon Do systems is that it is a Military Style. It focuses on power not speed. One punch one kill. The reason it is not as popular as WTF or other styles is because it is not as marketable. You won't see someone who trains in CMK in the olympics because the fighting stances alone promote power not speed. GGM Lee has passed on his traditional forms to his last student before he passed in the year 2000. GM Jon Weidenman has a website at ChangMooKwan.net that has a full history of Chang Moo Kwan. Also there are pictures of GGM Lee training students. There is also a link which includes original "The Green Book" that has the CMK lineage.
 

mastercole

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I know this is extremely late to answer this question. The difference between Chang Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do and other Tae Kwon Do systems is that it is a Military Style.

Taekwondo Oh Do Kwan was in charge of Taekwondo in the Korean Military, not Chang Moo Kwan. As a matter of fact Chang Moo Kwan Dan, like Dan from other Kwan except Chung Do Kwan, were not accepted by the Korean Army in the 1950 and part of the 60's. Chang Moo Kwan Dan holders had to retest under Oh Do Kwan.

Actually GM LEE Nam Suk and Chang Moo Kwan were one of the main forces that formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (representative member of the World Taekwondo Federation for Korea). Read about GM Lee in that Green Book to see his great involvement in the development of Kukkwion and WTF. It's mostly Grandmaster's from the Chang Moo Kwan that have been in charge of training instructors at the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters), even to this day. A look in the Chang Moo Kwan anniversary yearbook (Green Book) that GM Weidenman posted on his website, you find these Chang Moo Kwan masters that teach at the Kukkiwon Academy, names like KIM Ho Jae, LEE Chong Kwon and LEE Kyu Hyun, etc.

GM LEE Nam Suk made many trips around the world, and taught seminars in many nations, introducing the current Kukkiwon Poomsae, the same one's used today in World Taekwondo Federation World Poomsae Championships.

It focuses on power not speed. One punch one kill.

Speed is a necessary component of creating power in Taekwondo. Take away the speed, you take away the power as well. There is a saying "speed kills".

The reason it is not as popular as WTF or other styles is because it is not as marketable.

WTF is not a style, Kukkiwon is a style. Some of the most successful Taekwondo schools in the USA are run by instructors from the Chang Moo Kwan.

You won't see someone who trains in CMK in the olympics because the fighting stances alone promote power not speed.

Chang Moo Kwan has produced many Olympic Taekwondo Champions, and World Champions in the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). Go look in the Green Book and find LEE Seung Kuk - a student of GM LEE Nam Suk - he is likely the most famous coach in Korea, possibly producing the most Olympic Taekwondo Champions than anyone in history.

GGM Lee has passed on his traditional forms to his last student before he passed in the year 2000.

I have looked closely at those photo on GM Weidenman's website, and I can see that GM Lee is trying to teach everyone the Kukkiwon standard basic motions, and also the current Kukkiwon Poomsae that are recognized by the World Taekwondo Federation (member of the Olympics). They are certainly interesting photos, tell GM Weidenman that I thank him for putting those up. Ask GM Weidenman is he has any photos of GM Lee teaching the old Hyungs they use to do in the Chang Moo Kwan and if he does, could he post them as well, that would be interesting. Did you your self have a chance to train with GM Lee during that time when he was training with GM Wiedenman?

GM Jon Weidenman has a website at ChangMooKwan.net that has a full history of Chang Moo Kwan. Also there are pictures of GGM Lee training students. There is also a link which includes original "The Green Book" that has the CMK lineage.

Again, please pass on my thanks to him from posting those.

If you have a great interest in how Chang Moo Kwan and GM Lee were involved in the development of Taekwondo, you can read this English translation of a Korean Language Taekwondo history book.

http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf
 

CMKJeon-Sa

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MasterCole,
Thank you for your reply and clarification. When I said CMK was a military style I was referring to the way it is practiced. You are absolutely right. Speed does kill. I was referring to the sparring aspect. In CMK we spar to defend ourselves and eliminate the threat in front or around us. Although after reading what I had posted I probably did not articulate that very well. There is huge difference sparring and point sparring. The training for the Olympics and the training for real world self defense is completely different. In our association we focus on traditional CMK which include the Hyungs forms. The dojangs in our surrounding area are geared toward Olympic style Taekwondo but do not instill the tradition. They sacrifice power for speed without having the foundation set up first. I know there are still fantastic traditional dojangs all over the country but unfortunately in my area we are a dying breed. I did not have the opportunity to train with GM Lee. He passed in 2000 and I had not yet returned to training. Thank you for the link Sir.
 

mastercole

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MasterCole,
Thank you for your reply and clarification. When I said CMK was a military style I was referring to the way it is practiced. You are absolutely right. Speed does kill. I was referring to the sparring aspect. In CMK we spar to defend ourselves and eliminate the threat in front or around us. Although after reading what I had posted I probably did not articulate that very well. There is huge difference sparring and point sparring. The training for the Olympics and the training for real world self defense is completely different. In our association we focus on traditional CMK which include the Hyungs forms. The dojangs in our surrounding area are geared toward Olympic style Taekwondo but do not instill the tradition. They sacrifice power for speed without having the foundation set up first. I know there are still fantastic traditional dojangs all over the country but unfortunately in my area we are a dying breed. I did not have the opportunity to train with GM Lee. He passed in 2000 and I had not yet returned to training. Thank you for the link Sir.

We train in the methods of full contact Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic style sparring) to enhance self defense, just like the Korean Military does today, which was Shihap Kyorugi's original intent. I am not sure what the schools you speak of do, so I can not comment. However, like GM LEE Seung Kuk (pictured in the CMK Green book), the most well known student of Chang Moo Kwan founder GM LEE Nam Suk, I to believe if Taekwondo practitioners are not sparring full contact, they are not getting a self defense benefit from their training. If you like, I can send you an article on this subject written by GM LEE Chong Woo. He and GM LEE Nam Suk worked closely together to develop Taekwondo.

You speak of traditional Chang Moo Kwan. What year would that be from?
 

puunui

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In CMK we spar to defend ourselves and eliminate the threat in front or around us. Although after reading what I had posted I probably did not articulate that very well. There is huge difference sparring and point sparring. The training for the Olympics and the training for real world self defense is completely different. In our association we focus on traditional CMK which include the Hyungs forms. The dojangs in our surrounding area are geared toward Olympic style Taekwondo but do not instill the tradition. They sacrifice power for speed without having the foundation set up first. I know there are still fantastic traditional dojangs all over the country but unfortunately in my area we are a dying breed. I did not have the opportunity to train with GM Lee. He passed in 2000 and I had not yet returned to training. Thank you for the link Sir.

One chang moo kwan senior told me that there is no comparison to kick power today compared to the early days, because in the early days, as he point it, they did not know how to put power into their kicks. Punches maybe, maybe of the kwon go (makiwara training), but not kicks. Does your traditional Chang Moo Kwan association utilize the kwon go on a regular basis to develop power? As for sacrificing power for speed in Olympic style competition, that is incorrect. Speed and power are really inseparable. I find your comments perplexing, given the fact that GM LEE Nam Suk (I am assuming that is who you are referring to above) was one of the biggest components of kukki taekwondo, including but not limited to competition in the Olympic Games. I had the pleasure of testing before GM KIM Soon Bae, who is the current Chang Moo Kwan Jang, at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course.
 

ETinCYQX

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MasterCole,
Thank you for your reply and clarification. When I said CMK was a military style I was referring to the way it is practiced. You are absolutely right. Speed does kill. I was referring to the sparring aspect. In CMK we spar to defend ourselves and eliminate the threat in front or around us. Although after reading what I had posted I probably did not articulate that very well. There is huge difference sparring and point sparring. The training for the Olympics and the training for real world self defense is completely different. In our association we focus on traditional CMK which include the Hyungs forms. The dojangs in our surrounding area are geared toward Olympic style Taekwondo but do not instill the tradition. They sacrifice power for speed without having the foundation set up first. I know there are still fantastic traditional dojangs all over the country but unfortunately in my area we are a dying breed. I did not have the opportunity to train with GM Lee. He passed in 2000 and I had not yet returned to training. Thank you for the link Sir.

No, it really isn't.

Think about what good Olympic athletes develop. Fight sense, power, agility and stamina. How is that any different from self defense skills?

This has been rehashed over and over and over again. There is no secret to self defense; it's the same skills that make one a good competitor.

For the record I started with GM Jung Soo Park, now train as a KKW practitioner, and I firmly consider myself a much better fighter than I ever could have been as part of a Park's school.
 

zDom

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Think about what good Olympic athletes develop. Fight sense, power, agility and stamina. How is that any different from self defense skills?

Yep: fight sense (timing? reading opponents?), power, agility and stamina are ALL going to increase one's chances of escaping unharmed in a self-defense situation.

But "you fight like you train" proves true all too often.

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body, you run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios.

Odds are, you aren't going to be attacked with kicks. Odds are they are going to be punches (or a weapon swung) at the face.

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests is a bad idea — just like "turtling up" (a viable defense in Judo competition) is a bad idea anywhere except in a judo match.
 

puunui

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But "you fight like you train" proves true all too often.

I think people make too much about that. A lot of wtf style competitors cross train in all sorts of other martial arts and do all kinds of physical activity. Juan Moreno for example was competing in MMA tournaments. Many others take boxing, bjj, hapkido, etc.

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body, you run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios.

WTF competitors do not "train to watch for and defend against only kicks"; that is a color belt mentality for sparring. Skilled competitors train to watch for and defend against "pressure". Not the same thing.

Odds are they are going to be punches (or a weapon swung) at the face.

Depends. Not always. Again, we watch for "pressure", not specific circumstances.

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests is a bad idea — just like "turtling up" (a viable defense in Judo competition) is a bad idea anywhere except in a judo match.

If you think that is how a taekwondo competitor would react to a bar brawler, then you grossly misunderstand taekwondo and taekwondo competitors.
 

zDom

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I think people make too much about that. A lot of wtf style competitors cross train in all sorts of other martial arts and do all kinds of physical activity. Juan Moreno for example was competing in MMA tournaments. Many others take boxing, bjj, hapkido, etc.

Then your thinking is in error. Training is highly specific. Look up the principle of specificity (quick Google brought up this reference, for example:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/glossary/g/Specificity_def.htm

"
to become better at a particular exercise or skill, you must perform that exercise or skill. To be a good cyclist, you must cycle. The point to take away is that a runner should train by running and a swimmer should train by swimming."








And you argue against your own point: WTF competitors train in those other arts and or disciplines because they have realized they need to.

CMKJeon-Sa made the point that training for Olympic competition and training for self defense are completely different.

Etin argued that the "secret" to self defense is "the same skills that make one a good competitor."

I agreed that training would have some benefit but that skills are highly specific including self defense skills.

Your answer addresses a different argument, a Straw Man of "Anyone who is WTF competitor can not fight," by pointing out
that SOME WTF competitors cross train.

Hence you have proved MY point: that to better defend themselves, some WTF competitors have realized their training is not specific to defending themselves and have supplemented that training with cross training.


WTF competitors do not "train to watch for and defend against only kicks"; that is a color belt mentality for sparring. Skilled competitors train to watch for and defend against "pressure". Not the same thing.

Semantics, puunui. That is like a football coach saying they don't defend against passes and runs up the middle, they defend against people getting into their end zone.

Nice buzzword, I hope it enhances their training.

Depends. Not always. Again, we watch for "pressure", not specific circumstances.

Based on extensive research in the field, reviews of videotaped amateur and professional fighting contests and assaults, I stand by my statement that

"Odds are they are going to be punches (or a weapon swung) at the face." (Bold added this time since you missed it).

You counter "not always." Where in the above do you find me saying it will ALWAYS be a face punch?. Straw Man. You are arguing against a point I never tried to make ... again.



If you think that is how a taekwondo competitor would react to a bar brawler, then you grossly misunderstand taekwondo and taekwondo competitors.


Well you can rest assured I don't think that is how a taekwondo competitor would react. At least I hope not. My point is, clearly for those who are looking to discuss instead of discredit, that strategies that are common in those competitions are not valid for self defense situations.



Puunui, this isn't the first time you have gone point through point through one of my posts attempting to discredit both me and my points not through reasonable discussion and argument but by the use of fallacy.

I feel this counter to the charter of MT which is here to foster "a friendly discussion of martial arts."

At this point I am still unclear as to whether your bear some grudge against me for reasons I am unaware of, feel so passionately about your positions that you go overboard in discussion, are a troll, or simply do not know how to argue points reasonably.

Don't be surprised if I begin to ignore your posts completely in the future. Don't think for a second that your replies are so devastating that I am rendered unable to answer — just remember I have decided to ignore you because I have found you not to be worth the time.
 

puunui

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Then your thinking is in error. Training is highly specific. Look up the principle of specificity (quick Google brought up this reference, for example: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/glossary/g/Specificity_def.htm
"to become better at a particular exercise or skill, you must perform that exercise or skill. To be a good cyclist, you must cycle. The point to take away is that a runner should train by running and a swimmer should train by swimming."


What you fail to appreciate or understand is that taekwondo competitors train to land full force blows. That is how they train, and that is how they react. Instead you focus on stuff like this:

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body, you run the risk of developing habits that are bad for the the most likely self-defense scenarios.

And you argue against your own point: WTF competitors train in those other arts and or disciplines because they have realized they need to.

Wrong. They train in other stuff because they like it. Most taekwondo competitors I know, at least the high level ones, don't care what the rules are, they are into the idea of mano a mano against someone else, be it taekwondo, boxing, grappling, foosball, football, basketball, volleyball, video games, whatever. In short, they are into prevailing in pressure situations, which overrides your "how you train is how you react, pointing to examples which really insult the intelligence of our taekwondo competitors. They train to overcome and win, in sport, in physical contests, and in life. So of course they are not going to be looking for "only kicks to the head and face" or "punches to come to the body" in your bar fight scenario. That is, assuming that they are even in a bar in the first place, since most taekwondo practitioners are below the legal age for drinking.

CMKJeon-Sa made the point that training for Olympic competition and training for self defense are completely different.

I agreed that training would have some benefit but that skills are highly specific including self defense skills.

Your answer addresses a different argument, a Straw Man of "Anyone who is WTF competitor can not fight," by pointing out
that SOME WTF competitors cross train.

Hence you have proved MY point: that to better defend themselves, some WTF competitors have realized their training is not specific to defending themselves and have supplemented that training with cross training.

Wrong. See above.


Semantics, puunui. That is like a football coach saying they don't defend against passes and runs up the middle, they defend against people getting into their end zone.Nice buzzword, I hope it enhances their training.

No, in is not semantics. It is a concept framework. The fact of the matter is that taekwondo competitors do not "train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body". That, again, is a color belt mentality. By the way, most points scored in a match are kicks to the body, not to the "head and face".


Based on extensive research in the field, reviews of videotaped amateur and professional fighting contests and assaults, I stand by my statement that "Odds are they are going to be punches (or a weapon swung) at the face." (Bold added this time since you missed it).You counter "not always."

Whose research, yours? Odds are, the first assault will be a verbal one, followed by a two hand push to the chest or grab. Either that, or you will get blind sided.


Well you can rest assured I don't think that is how a taekwondo competitor would react. At least I hope not.

Then why mention it at all? Here is your statement, again:

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests is a bad idea — just like "turtling up" (a viable defense in Judo competition) is a bad idea anywhere except in a judo match.


My point is, clearly for those who are looking to discuss instead of discredit, that strategies that are common in those competitions are not valid for self defense situations.

But (again), if even you don't think taekwondo competitors would implement such strategies, then why mention it at all? Competition and self defense is different, just like poomsae and sparring is different. The strategies used in poomsae are different from sparring, but if someone brought that up, what would be the point?

Puunui, this isn't the first time you have gone point through point through one of my posts attempting to discredit both me and my points not through reasonable discussion and argument but by the use of fallacy. I feel this counter to the charter of MT which is here to foster "a friendly discussion of martial arts."

I'm not discrediting you, but rather the stale discredited stereotypes of what you think taekwondo competitors would do in a self defense situation. Things like this:

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests


At this point I am still unclear as to whether your bear some grudge against me for reasons I am unaware of, feel so passionately about your positions that you go overboard in discussion, are a troll, or simply do not know how to argue points reasonably.

Grudge for what? If anything, I think you have a resentment and grudge against me, which quite clearly comes through in your posts to me. If you or anyone else wishes to insult, attack or otherwise make false rude comments about taekwondo competitors, who love and will protect dearly, then of course I will be responding, again, to stuff like this:

If you train to watch for and defend against only kicks to the head and face and only look for punches to come to the body

Run in at a bar brawler with your hands dangling at your sides to rub chests

I would like to think that we are at the point at MT that these types of comments are no longer necessary to further discussions.

Don't be surprised if I begin to ignore your posts completely in the future. Don't think for a second that your replies are so devastating that I am rendered unable to answer — just remember I have decided to ignore you because I have found you not to be worth the time.

I think I remember you said that the last time, your announcement that you would be ignoring my posts in the future. I guess that wasn't true. When I write posts, I always assume that someone will object and respond. If you don't like it when people challenge or otherwise respond to your posts, then perhaps it is best to hit the ignore button.
 
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