Certification from orgs like Kukkiwon

[Jaeimseu]

In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?


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[Dirty Dog]

I think they might, if the diploma was issued by a school half way around the world, that they'd never seen.
Frankly, I value my Moo Duk Kwan certificates, issued by people who actually know me, more than the KKW certs, issued by people who have never even seen me at a distance.
The KKW could probably fix this fairly easily. The reality is that the KKW isn't really doing anything other than recording the promotion. They print out a document with a rubber stamp "signature" and send it to the instructor to hand to the student. So stop.
Print it out, rubber stamp it as "Registered with the KKW" and send it back to the instructor. To SIGN. And hand to the student.
That one difference - signed and issued by MY instructor - makes a world of difference.
And while they're changing things... register the promotion on the day of the test, not the day it's registered. The testing date is on the form. Use it. That is the day. Not the day that some functionary picked it up off their desk and pushed a few buttons.

 

[Jaeimseu]

The signature doesn't really bother me. The way I look at it is that my instructor represents Kukkiwon. To me, I like that a body of qualified people back my instructor to issue Kukkiwon certification. As long as each instructor does his job, the system works. Now, of course there are people who take advantage of the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is bad.

My university diplomas weren't personally signed by any of my actual professors. They were stamped with the president's name. And I couldn't pick the president's face out of a lineup.

I agree about the dates, though I imagine it's an efficiency issue, stamping hundreds of certificates at a time from different gradings in different locations.


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[Dirty Dog]

The signature doesn't really bother me. The way I look at it is that my instructor represents Kukkiwon. To me, I like that a body of qualified people back my instructor to issue Kukkiwon certification. As long as each instructor does his job, the system works. Now, of course there are people who take advantage of the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is bad.

My university diplomas weren't personally signed by any of my actual professors. They were stamped with the president's name. And I couldn't pick the president's face out of a lineup.

I agree about the dates, though I imagine it's an efficiency issue, stamping hundreds of certificates at a time from different gradings in different locations.

Well... I only went to my HS graduation because my mother insisted. I haven't gone to one since. I could probably dig up the actual pieces of paper the schools issued, but it would take a lot of digging... But awards and recognitions from my peers and instructors? I know right where those are.
Kind of the same attitude, I guess. I care about my practice. I care about the license that allows me to practice. I don't much care about the pieces of paper the universities issued, even if they were mandatory to get the license.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Well... I only went to my HS graduation because my mother insisted. I haven't gone to one since. I could probably dig up the actual pieces of paper the schools issued, but it would take a lot of digging... But awards and recognitions from my peers and instructors? I know right where those are.
Kind of the same attitude, I guess. I care about my practice. I care about the license that allows me to practice. I don't much care about the pieces of paper the universities issued, even if they were mandatory to get the license.

I don't much care about the physical certificates either, but I'd rather have my certification come from somewhere bigger than one guy.

I've had both types of tkd certs, but only one of them was accepted when I moved to Korea. It set me back a number of years in rank progression, though admittedly, that's not really all that important to me.


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[Dirty Dog]

I don't much care about the physical certificates either, but I'd rather have my certification come from somewhere bigger than one guy.

Personal preference. And the Moo Duk Kwan is a lot more than "one guy", but it is small enough that the person issuing the certificate is actually doing so based on their own personal knowledge.

I've had both types of tkd certs, but only one of them was accepted when I moved to Korea. It set me back a number of years in rank progression, though admittedly, that's not really all that important to me.

Sure. Because you went somewhere that doesn't recognize anything other than the KKW. If you want to train and progress within the KKW, it's probably a good idea to get KKW certificates.
But, as I said, if you want people to value those certificates over a Kwan certificate, it would be a good idea to have them issued by someone who actually knows the student.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I understand where you're coming from, though I think a lot of "value" is coming from how you present things to your students. If your instructor told you that the certificate with his name on it was more meaningful, you likely believe him. Of course, to play devil's advocate, I could easily argue that that instructor thinks it's more meaningful because he gets to keep the money instead of sending it to the bigger org.

As I understand it, your instructor may not have a choice since I believe you all are part of a Moo Duk Kwan association. But an otherwise independent instructor could issue Kukkiwon certification and also give out a school certificate. I doubt this happens often, though, in schools where there are test fees that the instructor wants to keep in house.


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[TrueJim]

I have a Ph.D. in mathematics and I taught college math for a few years. When you have a doctorate, other academic doctors may be somewhat interested in what school you got your degree from, but they're usually much more interested in who your thesis advisor was. E.g., "I got my degree from State U." 'Oh really, who did you study under?' "Professor John Doe." 'Oh really!' So generally it's the reputation of your thesis advisor that you're associated with, more than the reputation of your school...but that's only true in academic circles. Once I jumped to working in industry instead, nobody cares who you studied under.

Culturally, the world of taekwondo reminds me in many ways of the world of academia.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I understand where you're coming from, though I think a lot of "value" is coming from how you present things to your students. If your instructor told you that the certificate with his name on it was more meaningful, you likely believe him. Of course, to play devil's advocate, I could easily argue that that instructor thinks it's more meaningful because he gets to keep the money instead of sending it to the bigger org.

Who said anything about not sending the KKW the money? I just said change the certificate so it's signed by the actual person who tested you.

As I understand it, your instructor may not have a choice since I believe you all are part of a Moo Duk Kwan association. But an otherwise independent instructor could issue Kukkiwon certification and also give out a school certificate. I doubt this happens often, though, in schools where there are test fees that the instructor wants to keep in house.

We offer both Moo Duk Kwan and KKW certification, whichever the student prefers.
We're not a commercial school, so the fee argument is fairly irrelevant. There are fees, but they're pretty minimal.

 

[Blindside]

I had many high school and college instructors and all represented their institution, it makes sense to get a certificate by their organizations. I had one main Kenpo instructor and I had one main Kali instructor, the only opinion I care about it is theirs. Of course I think martial arts organizations are largely bunk anyway.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I had many high school and college instructors and all represented their institution, it makes sense to get a certificate by their organizations. I had one main Kenpo instructor and I had one main Kali instructor, the only opinion I care about it is theirs. Of course I think martial arts organizations are largely bunk anyway.

That's pretty much what I came to say. In college I had probably about 20+ different instructors, hired by the school, each teaching one small part of the curriculum dictated by the school. The individual instructors certified to the school that I had completed the designated portion of the curriculum according to standards and the school presented me with a degree indicating that I had satisfactorily completed the entire curriculum. This makes sense, since none of the individual teachers were in a position to testify that I had done everything necessary for the degree.

In BJJ I was promoted by my instructor who has personally observed and worked with me for years. My black belt certificate is signed by him, his instructor (who at least watched me roll a few times), and a couple of other senior black belts who have known me for years and have rolled with me. Each of those individuals is putting their name and credibility behind the notion that I have the skills and knowledge expected from a BJJ black belt. That means something to me. If I wanted my rank recognized by the IBJJF, I would need to fill out a form, have Carlson Jr. sign it, and send a big check off to the IBJJF (with another check for renewal every year). The IBJJF had nothing to do with my training and knows nothing about me, so such "recognition" would be worthless to me.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have a Ph.D. in mathematics and I taught college math for a few years. When you have a doctorate, other academic doctors may be somewhat interested in what school you got your degree from, but they're usually much more interested in who your thesis advisor was. E.g., "I got my degree from State U." 'Oh really, who did you study under?' "Professor John Doe." 'Oh really!' So generally it's the reputation of your thesis advisor that you're associated with, more than the reputation of your school...but that's only true in academic circles. Once I jumped to working in industry instead, nobody cares who you studied under.

Culturally, the world of taekwondo reminds me in many ways of the world of academia.

I think there are some similarities, too. If I was looking for a school to enroll as a student, I'd also ask about the instructor's instructor. However, I definitely don't consider a 1 Dan to be anything close to a Ph.D. I guess I look at Kukkiwon certification like graduating from an accredited school.


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[Jaeimseu]

That's pretty much what I came to say. In college I had probably about 20+ different instructors, hired by the school, each teaching one small part of the curriculum dictated by the school. The individual instructors certified to the school that I had completed the designated portion of the curriculum according to standards and the school presented me with a degree indicating that I had satisfactorily completed the entire curriculum. This makes sense, since none of the individual teachers were in a position to testify that I had done everything necessary for the degree.

In BJJ I was promoted by my instructor who has personally observed and worked with me for years. My black belt certificate is signed by him, his instructor (who at least watched me roll a few times), and a couple of other senior black belts who have known me for years and have rolled with me. Each of those individuals is putting their name and credibility behind the notion that I have the skills and knowledge expected from a BJJ black belt. That means something to me. If I wanted my rank recognized by the IBJJF, I would need to fill out a form, have Carlson Jr. sign it, and send a big check off to the IBJJF (with another check for renewal every year). The IBJJF had nothing to do with my training and knows nothing about me, so such "recognition" would be worthless to me.

I think in the case of BJJ it might be a bit different, perhaps. It seems like every BJJ add I see stresses the lineage the instructor comes from. I don't think that's nearly as prevalent in Taekwondo. There are so many different branches of tkd and so many "nobodies" running schools that the name on your certificate might not mean anything to someone else. If you never leave your little pond and go somewhere else, it likely won't affect you. But if you go out into the larger community, I think there is some value there. Anyway, regardless of whose signature is on the certificate, it's your instructor who approves and recommends you get it, so to me, that's the best of both worlds. I'm recognized by my instructor and the organization.


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[Jaeimseu]

I really didn't mean to get stuck on a comparison between education and martial arts. I understand both sides of the certification argument. What I'm really wondering is what other areas in which certification can be received would people rather have recognition only from their teacher and not some kind of governing body.


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[SahBumNimRush]

I've posted about this in the past on here, but I'll highlight my own situation for the sake of discussion.

My KJN is KKW ranked, as he was on the Masters delegation team for the Olympics in '88. He does not issue KKW certs, as we have never taught the newer formsets, so we really don't practice the KKW curriculum. However, I have some interest in the KKW certification, for no other reason than my KJN's age. He won't be around forever, and after he's gone, I would like to have a connection to the larger body of TKD.

It was the hope of my KJN along with 5 other grandmasters here in the states to create a path to preserve the "old curriculum" of TKD, by forming the United States Taekwondo Won back in 1999. I believe that GM Kyongwon AHN was the senior rank of those 6 grandmaster that formed the USTW. The initial meetings included KKW representatives, and things looked promising.

Ultimately, to do political agendas, and power grabs from individual state representatives, the USTW dwindled to where it is now, which is not much.

I feel as if I am stuck in regards to larger orgs, because we don't practice the newer Moo Duk Kwan forms, nor do we practice the newer KKW forms. So I don't really fit in either larger org as far as curriculums go.

Master Al Cole had given me contacts to the Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, before his passing, and I feel that I have a path of certification in the future after my KJN is no longer with us. Master Cole also expressed willingness for me to travel to train with him to gain certification through the KKW, but unfortunately he succumbed to cancer before I had that opportunity.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?


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The value of the certification to me is not having to pay another $500-1000. In a perfect world, I wouldn't care about my belt; I would be judged by my technique and taught accordingly. But since TKD schools are a business, the BB is a high cost and a high cost that I don't want to repeat. (E.g., my 2nd dan is $450 for the 1st test, and $750 a month or so later for the 2nd test).

So in the reality of today's world, I really only care about the KKW registration part of the black belt certificate.

 

[Blindside]

The value of the certification to me is not having to pay another $500-1000. In a perfect world, I wouldn't care about my belt; I would be judged by my technique and taught accordingly. But since TKD schools are a business, the BB is a high cost and a high cost that I don't want to repeat. (E.g., my 2nd dan is $450 for the 1st test, and $750 a month or so later for the 2nd test).

So in the reality of today's world, I really only care about the KKW registration part of the black belt certificate.

You have to pay $1300 for two tests for your second dan?

Man I suck as a salesman....

 

[Blindside]

I really didn't mean to get stuck on a comparison between education and martial arts. I understand both sides of the certification argument. What I'm really wondering is what other areas in which certification can be received would people rather have recognition only from their teacher and not some kind of governing body.

I don't think there are many places these days, the old apprentice/journeyman/master path is largely gone from trades these days. One of the few examples that I can think of is one of my friends who is a professional knifemaker, he is very proud to share that he learned his heat treating methods from one of the best in the business. He might be certified by some knife makers guild, but I don't think he cares about that.

 

[WaterGal]

And while they're changing things... register the promotion on the day of the test, not the day it's registered. The testing date is on the form. Use it. That is the day. Not the day that some functionary picked it up off their desk and pushed a few buttons.

Kukkiwon actually doesn't ask for the testing date anymore - but there shouldn't be more than a 2-week difference, if your instructor is prompt about going on the KKW website and submitting the form to them (it's done electronically now). They usually approve it pretty quickly, though they may wait a couple weeks after that to actually mail it, and then the international airmail takes another few weeks, so that's why it can take like two months to actually get the cert.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Kukkiwon actually doesn't ask for the testing date anymore - but there shouldn't be more than a 2-week difference, if your instructor is prompt about going on the KKW website and submitting the form to them (it's done electronically now). They usually approve it pretty quickly, though they may wait a couple weeks after that to actually mail it, and then the international airmail takes another few weeks, so that's why it can take like two months to actually get the cert.

It can be done electronically. But it's not always. Perhaps we're still using an old version of the form, but it does ask the date. And in my opinion, it should. Because frankly, I don't give a rats behind when it was registered.
This is a prime example of what I meant in the first place. If the KKW wants people to value their certification over that of the school or kwan, the certificate needs to reflect that. It needs to have the date of the test on it, and it needs to be signed by the person who actually did the test.
The current method basically says "nothing matters except the KKW, your promotion date is when we say it is."