Can anyone without training or experience execute effective techniques out of instinct?

[jobo]

Ok uncle jobo you are now a role model

Well yes, role models are of considerable importance in a childs development and personality traits, we learn a considerable amount through the behavour of others,we deem as important,,if im a good role model is open for debate, my sister isnt so sure,

He has developmed a whole, come and have ago if you think yoor hard enough mentality, which isnt quite what she had in mind

 

[now disabled]

Well yes, role models are of considerable importance in a childs development and personality traits, we learn a considerable amount through the behavour of others,we deem as important,,if im a good role model is open for debate, my sister isnt so sure,

He has developmed a whole, come and have ago if you think yoor hard enough mentality, which isnt quite what she had in mind

Yes I agree role models are important

Ooops ... well the real important question now is , Can your sister kick you butt lol? if not then it ok if she can then I suggest bribing the Kid to say it was someone else that taught him lol

 

[Danny T]

"Can anyone without training or experience execute effective techniques out of instinct?"

Absolutely not!
This is the precise reason the human animal has almost become extinct except for those us who have been trained.

 

[marques]

If you consider pulling hair an effective technique, yes.
Once I was thinking what to do and in a moment I was seeing my body moving, instinctively. Never trained it in class (because not noble and not much to train about), but had seen the instructor using it. That day I pulled a tall guy hair, down to my level, to finish with a RNC, IRL. I consider it effective; but I did it only once, so it is a very small sample to be sure.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Lad the cut and thrust if you are referring to swords is not natural at all ...for one thing swords can be very different in what they are designed for ie slashing ...thrusting or indeed fencing and use said effectively then it is taught and learned. Yes ok give most healthy fir people a sword and let them loose then yup damage will occur for sure but to effectively cut etc no that is taught young man.

As for your natural v trained fighter, again that is dependent on what his training is it is not carte blanche that a trained fighter will go direct or linear at all. Also it all depends on the situation and the surroundings and most importantly what you face or you perceive you face eg in you face a knife wielding drunk that staggering etc the approach may be different to that if you face a sober guy would looked in control of his faculties. So don't young man make to many assumptions.

Im aware, i was just bringing up that some people viewed some techniques as go to's for the untrained. There are cases of people having the completer opposite view of each other, its not a science. I just only recalled the sword saying the best. (the age old cut or thrust, which is better)

Also, i would extend how people fight without any formal training to what they have seen and experienced. A country/culture which has adopted a sabre would be more prone to cutting with various weapons as that's the best means of attack with one than a culture with a rapier. (there are cases of weapons with hindsight working betting by thrusting being used to cut and the reverse, i would argue if someone showed that cutting worked best for this weapon most people would adopt it and endorse it if it worked for them)

The modern analogy i can think of this is baseball. If you do it/watch it a lot when you pick up a weapon you will draw on baseball on how to use it as that's the only thing you can draw on, its the only thing remotely close to the action you will be taking. (this can apply to fiction and non fiction, the former would be less reliable results) Or maybe you use axes a lot so you treat most weapons like you would a axe.


Just to cover it, you would need training to use a sword (well enough) its not the most beginner or untrained friendly weapon in the world, just to get that out of the way.


Just de weaponize this, i can do weapon related things easier.

(Excuse the broken second and third paragraph i deleted it to rewrite it and its content is much more simplistic and lacking than the original version)

addendum: Not too sure if any of this was disputed, but never hurts to elaborate a point and provide examples.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If you consider pulling hair an effective technique, yes.
Once I was thinking what to do and in a moment I was seeing my body moving, instinctively. Never trained it in class (because not noble and not much to train about), but had seen the instructor using it. That day I pulled a tall guy hair, down to my level, to finish with a RNC, IRL. I consider it effective; but I did it only once, so it is a very small sample to be sure.

If you have watched any amount of female fighting, you would know hair pulling works well enough for female vs female. (or child vs child)

 

[marques]

If you have watched any amount of female fighting, you would know hair pulling works well enough for female vs female. (or child vs child)

The remaining question is: Have they trained it? I don’t.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Can anyone without training or experience execute effective techniques out of instinct?"

Can Mike Tyson win on the wrestling mat? I don't think he can.

The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, each string will compress and release independently. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time and also released at the same time.

 

[pdg]

"Can anyone without training or experience execute effective techniques out of instinct?"

Can Mike Tyson win on the wrestling mat? I don't think he can.

The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, each string will compress and release independently. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time and also released at the same time.

Sure, put Tyson on a mat against a trained wrestler, constrain him to wrestling rules - he might not do great.

Walk up to him in the street and try to wrestle him - most likely a very different outcome.

Outside of rulesets there have always been examples of people with no formal training winning in violent confrontations...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sure, put Tyson on a mat against a trained wrestler, constrain him to wrestling rules - he might not do great.

Walk up to him in the street and try to wrestle him - most likely a very different outcome.

Outside of rulesets there have always been examples of people with no formal training winning in violent confrontations...

That's true, but the OP was about effective technique. So without training, I could be an effective fighter, have good movement, timing, all that jazz. But my technique, my ability to do a proper kimura, or throw a hook with proper form, wouldn't be at it's maximum effectiveness.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Outside of rulesets there have always been examples of people with no formal training winning in violent confrontations...

If an un-trained guy can beat up a trained guy, that trained guy should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

If an un-trained guy has never hit his fist on any hard object, he may break his own hand the 1st time he throws a punch.

Since an un-trained guy has no rooting concept. He could be taken down within 3 seconds.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If an un-trained guy can beat up a trained guy, that trained guy should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

If an un-trained guy has never hit his fist on any hard object, he may break his own hand the 1st time he throws a punch.

Since an un-trained guy has no rooting concept. He could be taken down within 3 seconds.

What if the trained guy is asleep and the untrained guy has a gun?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if the trained guy is asleep and the untrained guy has a gun?

The un-trained guy could be asleep and the trained guy could have a gun too.

MA training -> your body is in better shape -> your survival rate is higher.

 

[pdg]

That's true, but the OP was about effective technique. So without training, I could be an effective fighter, have good movement, timing, all that jazz. But my technique, my ability to do a proper kimura, or throw a hook with proper form, wouldn't be at it's maximum effectiveness.

Well, it really depends how you interpret the OP, and further how you define 'technique'.

If I interpret it the way you appear to have, then I completely agree - it's hugely unlikely a random person will perform a 'named' technique by the book.

If however it's taken as can that person perform a technique that works effectively under pressure, the chances are far greater.

 

[pdg]

If an un-trained guy can beat up a trained guy, that trained guy should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang himself.

If an un-trained guy has never hit his fist on any hard object, he may break his own hand the 1st time he throws a punch.

Since an un-trained guy has no rooting concept. He could be taken down within 3 seconds.

Maybe, maybe not...

History is full of examples of a person armed with no more than the will to survive and the desire to protect their family beating trained aggressors.

There's also stuff on YouTube of trained MMA fighters being beaten by random thugs.

Motivation is a powerful factor that can sometimes overcome training and even physical condition.

I freely admit that all things being taken into account a trained person should stand a better chance than an untrained one, but the untrained doesn't have zero chance if the motivation and will to act is present.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I freely admit that all things being taken into account a trained person should stand a better chance than an untrained one, but the untrained doesn't have zero chance if the motivation and will to act is present.

Old saying said if 2 persons meet in a dark alley, the one who has more courage will win.

Courage > Strength > Kung Fu

 

[pdg]

Old saying said if 2 persons meet in a dark alley, the one who has more courage will win.

I know a few sayings about meeting in dark alleys, but there's no courage or winning in them and they're not suitable for a family audience

 

[JR 137]

One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen...

My cousin is at my father’s house on Thanksgiving. His 3 and 5 year old sons are wrestling in the living room, while my 5 and 7 year old daughters are on the couch cheering them on. Their father walks in the room and is genuinely dumbfounded, as he’s never seen them do anything like that before. He’s getting ready to break it up when me and my other cousin tell him to let them go for a second. What can I say, we were being entertained. We were also doing some color commentary

His 5 year old throws a perfect single leg takedown, then applies an arm bar. We were laughing and amazed by the skill being displayed. Their father is about to break it up when I say “don’t stop the fight! Let him get the tapout!”

So yeah, a 5 year old with zero training and experience can throw some great stuff instinctually. He sunk the arm bar nicely, but let it go without a tap.

 

[Buka]

I've known people who've had no formal training whatsoever who are very dangerous thugs. I suppose you could say they could be considered street fighters. They could be considered a lot of things, none of them good.

 

[JR 137]

I've known people who've had no formal training whatsoever who are very dangerous thugs. I suppose you could say they could be considered street fighters. They could be considered a lot of things, none of them good.

I completely agree. I know a lot of people who could walk into a dojo (and good dojos at that) and be able to hang with pretty much anyone. Not flashy fancy stuff, but actual fighting basics.

But to play devil’s advocate for a second...
The thread title says without training or experience. The people we’re thinking of have plenty of experience fighting.