Bujinkan, Genbukan, ToShinDo

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kodanjaclay, Jul 8, 2003.

  1. Kodanjaclay

    Kodanjaclay Blue Belt

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    Please bear with me, as I am less than educated in this area.

    How do these schools differ? What is the typical thought about ToShinDo and Master Hayes? How is Genbukan different from Bujinkan?

    I'm sure your answers will provoke some more questions... Thanks in advance for your assistance. Also, foe those who answer, could you tell me a touch about your qualifications? I want to make sure I get information perpetrated by legitimate sources, and not the Ashida Kim type info.

    Thanks again.
     
  2. Pyros

    Pyros Guest

    Bujinkan
    - a curriculum of combination of nine traditions by Hatsumi
    - has some guidelines what and how to teach the lower ranks but the instructors can use their discretion
    - goes from drilling the basic kihon kata fast into training all kinds of applications

    Genbukan
    - a curriculum taught by Tanemura
    - has a strict belt to belt rank system with exact syllabys for all ranks
    - the combo learned from Hatsumi with some minor outside influences too
    - has actually two separate programs: ninpo bugei and kokusai jujutsu

    Jinenkan
    - a combined curriculum of six traditions by Manaka (learned them from Hatsumi)
    - has a very strict belt to belt rank system
    - focuses on perfecting the basic kihon kata before going for applications

    ToShinDo
    - a curriculum created and taught by Hayes
    - techniques based on what Hayes learned at Bujinkan
    - whole syllabus has been modernized, defences are trained against modern boxer-type punches and so on instead of traditional lunge punches, and so on.

    This is not enough space to give detailed explanations but I feel these are the very basic differences.
     
  3. Kodanjaclay

    Kodanjaclay Blue Belt

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    Thank you for your kind assistance. I'm still unclear on one point.

    What are these? "ninpo bugei and kokusai jujutsu"

    Thank you for your overviews. There were precisely what I was asking for.
     
  4. Pyros

    Pyros Guest

    Well, to make this extremely simple:

    Ninpo bugei means ninja martial arts.
    Kokusai jujutsu is a curriculum of samurai arts.

    The nine traditions taught by Hatsumi have three ninjutsu schools and six samurai schools, so Genbukan has made two curricula which focus on slightly differing areas. Yet they overlap, their Ninpo Bugei system has samurai arts in them too and so on.

    No prob.
     
  5. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    That's not quite true, in my opinion.

    There are only three ryuha in the Bujinkan that emphasize Ninjutsu (Togakure-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu, and Kumogakure-ryu). But, I have also been told that Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu definitely contains Shinobijutsu as well (although it isn't emphasized all that much). There may be other ryu that contain Ninjutsu as well, but I wouldn't know.

    In addition, just because a ryu doesn't teach Ninjutsu per se does not mean it is a "samurai school". Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu, for example, to the best of my knowledge contain no Shinobijutsu but are definite Ninja schools.

    Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu, Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu, and Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu are a bit of an enigma though. Both Kukishinden-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu come from Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu (as do Togakure-ryu and Gyokko-ryu), and the family names associated with their lineages are all Iga-ryu families. And, as stated before, Kukishinden-ryu contains Shinobijutsu. Still, its a little unclear whether these schools are "Ninja" schools are not.

    Gikan-ryu also has "ninja roots" within the Gyokko-ryu. Takagi Yoshin-ryu is the only ryuha in the Bujinkan that you could safely say is a relatively "pure" samurai school.

    In my opinion, though, the strict dichotomy many have between "Ninja" and "Samurai", though, is a bit illusory.

    Laterz.
     
  6. Pyros

    Pyros Guest

    Sure. I was just trying to keep it simple as it was apparent the person asking didn't know much anything, so there was no need ot start splitting hairs. I gave him a very brief intro, but if he is really interested then he should research it a lot more than just ask a question on a forum like this. :cool:
     
  7. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Okies. :D
     
  8. Pyros

    Pyros Guest

    One more thing: the Kokusai Jujutsu system draws from more jujutsu systems than just the nine traditions found in Bujinkan.
     
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I just saw a reference to Kanousei Ryu Ninjutsu on a web page (in connection with a Shidoshi Wennberg of Sweden). Where does it fit in?
     
  10. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    It doesn't from what I can tell. The "founder" looks all of 17. Not certain if he's had previous Ninpo experiance or not.
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, he looked rather young to me too.
     
  12. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    In addition, just because a ryu doesn't teach Ninjutsu per se does not mean it is a "samurai school". Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu, for example, to the best of my knowledge contain no Shinobijutsu but are definite Ninja schools.

    heretic888,
    These two systems are the base of the skills used in Togakure ryuha.
    Togakure ryuha is the Ninpo taijutsu and these two are more or less the combative systems used to reenforce the taijutsu skills of Togakure ryuha for self-preservation.

    Gyokko ryuha is also a ninpo system.

    One point is most of the kobujutsu ryuha - ryu had shinobijutsu in them.
    This doesn't have to mean it was complete or a main base.
    It could have been as simple as stealth or acting injured or etc..

    I hope this helps,

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  13. Airyu@hotmail.com

    Airyu@hotmail.com Green Belt

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    Hello Everyone,

    I believe many of what are now classified "Samurai" or "Clan" based arts included shinbojutsu as part of a well rounded educations for it's members. This makes it very difficult to separate out one as "Ninja" only or "Samurai" only.

    Shihan Ralph, good to see you here!

    Bufu Ikkan

    Steve Lefebvre
     
  14. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Hrmmmm..... I think the differentiating point is that the people a lot of us call "ninja" refer pretty much just to the samurai of Iga and Koga (the "professional shinobi" as Turnbull called them). Problem is not everyone holds the same definition of "ninja", and simply use it to refer to anyone involved in feudal acts of sneakiness. And, as has been said, a LOT of ryuha taught at least a little bit on how to be good at being sneaky.

    So, its a tricky subject, to say the least...
     
  15. As for Mr. Hayes, a few years back I participated in a seminar taught by him and his wife. Both great people and certainly masters of their trade. At one point I wasn't getting a particular technique down and Mr. Hayes came over, showed me the correct method, then let me perform the technique on him. As for Mrs. Hayes, she gave a display where she tossed average size joes around like rag dolls. After the event, we went out to dinner and discussed martial arts. Truly one of the most enjoyable experiences in my martial art history. I recently saw that his Quest has a home study course. Think this would be excellent and it appears to be at a great price compared to other programs.
     

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