Buddhist theory of ninja origin

BruceCalkins

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NinjaJim:
I know I get Long winded but this is the History I learned of the Ninja...

Ninjutsu" is usually translated as the "art of stealth." The Japanese character, "nin" (also translated as "shinobi") has many meanings, such as perseverance, endurance, and sufferance. The term Ninjutsu is most commonly used to refer to the specific methods and techniques used by the Ninja. Ninjutsu as a way of life didn't happen overnight. It developed over the course of many years. The name Ninjutsu itself didn't come about until several generations after the Ninja lifestyle began.
Ninjutsu was created in central Honshu (the largest of the Japanese islands) about eleven hundred years ago. It was developed by mountain-dwelling families in an area not unlike the American Appalachians, where the terrain is rugged and remote. Ninja families were great observers of nature. They felt a close connection to the Earth, similar to the Native Americans, and their lifestyle was one that lived according to the laws of Nature, not against it. Ninja were also very spiritual people, and their beliefs became an integral part of Ninjutsu.
One of the spiritual influences was Shinto, "the way of the kami." Kami is the Japanese word for "god" or "deity." It implies, however, a feeling for a sacred or charismatic force, rather than a being. The early Japanese regarded their whole world: the rivers, mountains, lakes, and trees, to have their own energy and spirit. Another spiritual influence on the Ninja was Mikkyo. Mikkyo, for the Ninja, was not a religion as much as it was a method for enhancing personal power. These methods included the use of secret words and symbols to focus their energy and intentions toward specific goals.
It is generally accepted that the methods found in Ninjutsu originated outside of Japan. After the fall of the T'ang dynasty in China, many outcast warriors, philosophers, and military strategists escaped to Japan to avoid punishment by the new Chinese rulers. It is believed that Ninja families were exposed to many of these exiled people's sophisticated warrior strategies and philosophies over the centuries, helping to influence and shape what became Ninjutsu.
The Ninja were also very much influenced by a group of people called Shugenja, who roamed the same mountainous sections as the Ninja. The Shugendo method of spiritual self-discovery consisted of subjecting oneself to the harsh weather and terrain of the area in order to draw strength from the earth itself. They would walk through fire, stand beneath freezing waterfalls, and hang over the edges of cliffs in an effort to overcome fear and assume the powers of nature.
It would be incorrect to say that these three spiritual methods were the actual roots of Ninjutsu, but there is little doubt that they were a large influence. Ninjutsu was and is a separate philosophy.
The Ninja were not particularly warlike, yet they were constantly harassed by the ruling society of Japan. They were routinely subjected to unfair taxation and religious persecution. The Ninja eventually learned to act more and more efficiently in their own self-defense. They used their superior knowledge of the workings of nature, as well as specific military techniques passed down through the years, as weapons against the numerically superior government armies. They used any ruse, harbored any superstition, and employed any strategy to protect themselves. If necessary, they would use devious political manipulations to ensure peace.
There were as many as seventy or eighty Ninja clans operating in the Koga and Iga regions of Japan during the height of Ninja activity. Most of these Ninja were descendants of, or were themselves, displaced samurai. Therefore, they operated on the sidelines of the political schemes of the government. Sometimes a Ninja family would use its military or information-gathering resources to protect its members from becoming victims in a power play between competing samurai clans. Occasionally, a Ninja family would support one faction over another, if they felt it to be to their advantage.
As with any society, there were renegades who misused the training they received. Occasionally, "Ninja" would rent themselves out for espionage or assassination work. Unfortunately these outcasts have become the stereotype of the "evil ninja" that we see today in the media. They were, however, a minority. The average Ninja worked very much in conjunction with his family and community goals.
Ninja were not always primarily soldiers. Of course, certain Ninja operatives, or genin, were trained from childhood as warriors. But this training was usually precautionary. Genin Ninja knew that they might be called to help protect the community at some future time, but, they often spent most of their lives as farmers or tradespeople. Ninja intelligence gatherers sent to live in the strongholds of potential enemies were rarely required to act openly.
If an operative was called to action it was as a result of a carefully plotted, and usually desperate, plan. The genin would be contacted and assigned a mission by his chunin superior. The chunin, or middle man, was a "middle-man" between the jonin family leader and the operative. Jonin made all philosophical and long-range strategic decisions for the clan. Often, the identity of the jonin was kept secret from chunin and genin, alike. Of course certain historical periods required more secret activity than others.
Eventually this activity virtually died out altogether but the legacies, in some cases, remained.
[font=verdana,arial]Although there has been an evolution of Ninjutsu as a life philosophy over the centuries, the fundamental principles have remained virtually unchanged. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is more than 800 years old. Except for a relatively short period of notoriety prior to the reign of the Tokugawas, the art lived quietly in the hearts of just a few people. The Ninja were a separate society from the urban centered ruling class and the non-privileged classes which served them. Consider the gulf that must have existed between the new American government and the American Indians during the first 125 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Although this is an incomplete and potentially misleading analogy, it may give you a better understanding on how Ninjutsu may have developed as a counterculture to the samurai-dominated Japanese society. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]For hundreds of years Ninja families lived in the mountains, practicing their esoteric methods of approaching enlightenment through gaining an understanding of the basic laws of nature. History had taught them that they must be prepared to protect their family and their lifestyle. They perfected a system of martial arts that has earned them the reputation for being the most amazing warriors the world has ever known. It is this reputation that initially attracts most people. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]The Ninja's reputation is put into a better perspective when some facts are brought to light. First, Ninja were not wizards or witches, of course, but ordinary men and women with a unique and misunderstood philosophical viewpoint. This philosophy became a very important part of their combat method. Hence, we refer to our art as Ninpo, the "po" suggesting "a higher order", or "encompassing philosophy." The samurai approach to combat was called bushido; it evolved from a general set of guidelines for the gentleman warrior into a formal discipline. The Ninja philosophy, though sharing many of the same values as the original samurai, evolved along a different cultural path. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]The Ninja's sometimes devious tactics were seen by some as cowardly and disgusting.* From the Ninja point of view, however, guerrilla warfare versus a numerically superior force was plain good sense. The Ninja were outnumbered, as a rule, so they had to use unusual methods if they ever hoped to survive. Nevertheless, victory was not always ensured. Japanese history books tell of instances of entire Ninja clans being destroyed. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]Many times, however, the unusual methods did succeed. Without a working knowledge of the Ninja philosophy, their opponents were unable to figure out the Ninjutsu strategies. The Ninja only seemed like wizards. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]Second, stories which have created the modern image of the Ninja as thoughtless criminals, were written after the fact by historians who were sympathetic to the samurai point of view. Since Ninja were not bushi (followers of the samurais' strict code of martial ethics) they were looked down upon as being uncivilized. [/font]
[font=verdana,arial]Third, the exaggerations of Ninja abilities were started by the Ninja themselves as a deterrent to outside interference. The demonstrated prowess of the Ninja as warriors, as well as the fact that they were such a closed and uncommunicative society, combined to create an opportunity for them to exaggerate their own skills and surround themselves with an eerie cloak of mystery. It is very easy to be frightened of something that is not understood. Thus, this frightening and supernatural mystique was born.** If, however, it was merely the guerrilla tactics of the Ninja that were useful, the lore of the Ninja would not be of interest to the wide range of people who enjoy practicing Ninjutsu today. Far more than stealth or assassination techniques, Ninpo, or the essence of the Ninja's outlook, is a physical, emotional, and spiritual method of self-protection from the dangers that confront those on the warrior path to enlightenment.:asian: [/font]
 

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One thing I'd like to point out is "Shin" doesnt neccessarily mean god or deity. this is a translation to english but it holds a different meaning in Japana lore. Shin is more like Reverence, or divine.

Much like demon. in english, demon is a bad thing. in japan, its simply a powerful being that can be good or bad.
 

Don Roley

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Mr Calkins,
Since you decided to not list any sources for what you wrote, the natural assumption is that you learned it while a live- in member of Balck Star ninjutsu. Since there are many questions and little proof about that experience, I know people will start asking you to back them up and I do not want that type of disruption. So I moved it here.

I must say Mr Calkins, you should do a bit more research and try to understand the subject matter before posting like this. I really do not know where to start to explain all the various mistakes you have made in your post. I would have to say the best thing would be to abandon all you think you know and start from scratch with an open mind.
 

The Kai

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Watch your footing, it is easy to slip in the Cut and Paste job in here.
 
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BruceCalkins

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That Is What I am talking about... This post was a test to all that say they know what they are talking about.... You are so ready to claim BS that you don't care about anything else... Well Just to let you know... The Information I posted was a direct Statement from Bujinkan and Soke Masaaki Hatsumi from one of the web sites He Sponcers.. http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_history.html


You are all so sure I don't know anything you don't read... And Just because My History dose not match the one you learned dose not make it wrong. I have alread explained that. The Monks of Tibet I'm sure know alot more than anyone on this web about the history of Martial Arts and also Sifu Ming of NYC.. He is a Shaolin Monk from China and He teaches the same history of the Traveler through China in 525bc frm India that I teach.

Next time read before you just post.RTFM
 
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BruceCalkins

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Don Roley said:
Mr Calkins,
Since you decided to not list any sources for what you wrote, the natural assumption is that you learned it while a live- in member of Balck Star ninjutsu. Since there are many questions and little proof about that experience, I know people will start asking you to back them up and I do not want that type of disruption. So I moved it here.

I must say Mr Calkins, you should do a bit more research and try to understand the subject matter before posting like this. I really do not know where to start to explain all the various mistakes you have made in your post. I would have to say the best thing would be to abandon all you think you know and start from scratch with an open mind.
Maybe you should read your own history from your system.
 

47MartialMan

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Very interesting Bruce-touche'.

Perhaos you should have waiting for more postees.

However, I have a problem with;

The Monks of Tibet I'm sure know alot more than anyone on this web about the history of Martial Arts and also Sifu Ming of NYC.. He is a Shaolin Monk from China and He teaches the same history of the Traveler through China in 525bc frm India that I teach.
 
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BruceCalkins

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Martial Man:

I am just trying to show that different cultures have different history and teach it in different ways. I was taught the history about Bodhidharma or Ta-Mo

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bodhidharma (Tamo, Ch.) (Daruma, Jap.)[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Deeply learned South Indian Buddhist monk who arrived at the Chinese Court in 520 B.C. Known in China as Tamo, and in Japan as Daruma. After his famous interview with Emperor Wu, he meditated for nine years in silence and departed. Bodhidharma was the first Chinese Ch'an (Zen) Patriarch. The father of Zen Buddhism, although it was left to Masters of the eighth century, to consolidate his teaching and technique into a school of Buddhism.[/font]​
The Shaolin order dates to about 540 B.C., when an Indian Buddhist priest named Bodhidharma (Tamo in Chinese), traveled to China to see the Emperor. At that time, the Emperor had started local Buddhist monks translating Buddhist texts from Sanskrit to Chinese. The intent was to allow the general populace the ability to practice this religion.
This was a noble project, but when the Emperor believed this to be his path to Nirvana, Tamo disagreed. Tamo's view on Buddhism was that you could not achieve your goal just through good actions performed by others in your name. At this point the Emperor and Tamo parted ways and Tamo traveled to the nearby Buddhist temple to meet with the monks who were translating these Buddhist texts.
The temple had been built years before in the remains of a forest that had been cleared or burned down. At the time of the building of the temple, the emperor's gardeners had also planted new trees. Thus the temple was named "young (or new) forest", (Shaolin in Mandarin, Sil Lum in Cantonese).
When Tamo arrived at the temple, he was refused admittance, probably being thought of as an upstart or foreign meddler by the head abbot (Fang Chang). Rejected by the monks, Tamo went to a nearby cave and meditated until the monks recognized his religious prowess and admitted him. Legend has it that he bored a hole through one side of the cave with his constant gaze; in fact, the accomplishment that earned his recognition is lost to history.
When Tamo joined the monks, he observed that they were not in good physical condition. Most of their routine paralleled that of the Irish monks of the Middle Ages, who spent hours each day hunched over tables where they transcribed handwritten texts. Consequently, the Shaolin monks lacked the physical and mental stamina needed to perform even the most basic of Buddhist meditation practices. Tamo countered this weakness by teaching them moving exercises, designed to both enhance philosophy is one that started from Buddhism and later adopted many Taoist principles to become a new sect. Thus even though a temple may have been Taoist or Buddhist at first, once it became Shaolin, it was a member of a new order, an amalgamation of the prevailing Chinese philosophies of the time.
Other temples sprung from Henan. This happened because the original temple would suffer repeated attacks and periods of inactivity as the reigning Imperial and regional leaders feared the martial powers of the not-always unaligned monks. Refugee Shaolin practitioners would leave the temple to teach privately (in Pai) or at other Buddhist or Taoist temples. In rare cases, a new Shaolin Temple would be erected (Fukien, Kwangtung) or converted from a pre-existing temple (Wu-Tang, O Mei Shan). Politically and militarily involved monks (such as the legendary White Eyebrow and Hung Tze Kwan) would be perpetual sources of trouble for the generally temporally aloof monks.
The Boxer rebellion in 1901 was the beginning of the end of the Shaolin temples. Prior to that, China had been occupied by Western and Japanese governments and business interests. The British had turned the Imperial family into an impotent puppet regime largely through the import and sales of opium and the general drug-devastation inflicted upon the poor population. This lead to the incursion of other European powers, including Russia, France and Holland, and later the Japanese and Americans. By the late 1800s, China was effectively divided into national zones, each controlled by one of the outside powers (similar to post World War II Berlin, on a hugely larger scale). The long standing animosities between China and Japan worsened, and extended to include all other "foreign devils" as well. Coupled with the now almost universal disdain by the Chinese for their Empress, a Nationalist movement with nation-wide grass-roots support was born. Among the front line soldiers of the new "order" were the legendary and near-legendary martial artists--many Shaolin--known as Boxers (remember how Bruce Lee, in his films depicting these times, refers to himself as a Chinese boxer...). Though their initial assaults on the military powers of the occupation governments were not entirely successful (many believed in Taoist magical spells that would make them impervious to gunfire), their temporary defeat would lead to a more modern reformation that included adopting modern military weapons and tactics.
The withdrawal of western forces was prolonged over many years, and by the end of World War I saw China in an almost feudal state of civil war. Not only were national troops fighting loyalists, but both sides had to fight the Japanese (who still held much of the northern Manchurian region of China) as well as many powerful, regional warlords. Many parts of China were virtually anarchies, but by 1931 almost all non-Asian occupants had been successfully driven out (with the interesting exception, in the late 1930s, of the volunteer American airmen known as The Flying Tigers, who helped repel Japanese forces prior to World War II), and the major combatants within China were the Nationalists and the Communists. Both sides displayed the typical jingoistic attitudes of forces in mindless warfare--if you aren't with us, you are against us. Neutrality meant nothing except the possibility of a later enemy. Consequently, Shaolin and other monks were routinely murdered by soldiers from both sides. One result of this program of murder was the exodus of many monks into the hills, or abroad, with the hope that Shaolin knowledge might survive even if the temples themselves did not.
The temples were unfortunate victims of war in a land that had abandoned its historical practice of respecting posterity and ancestors. All were ransacked and looted by various armed groups. O Mei Shan Temple ("Great White Mountain"), in Szechuan Province, was situated on a mountain top and deemed by Chinese officers to be a fitting target for artillery practice. It was shelled in turn by Nationalist and Communist armies. In a fitting twist of fate, this one-time site of medical and natural history knowledge was rebuilt by the Communists in the mid 1970s, and now stands as the National Park and Research Headquarters for the panda preserve.
There are various stories coming out of China today referring to the history of Shaolin, particularly over the past 300 years. However, many of these stories are suspect (compare Chinese accounts of Tiananmen Square with CNN news coverage), with the more commonly "authenticated" versions coming from government records. The fact that Chinese authorities outlawed Shaolin and martial arts practices makes any story about their history from such sources suspect. The prevalent wu-shu styles originated as a result of a compromise between the post-World War II governments and the national need and history of having a martial arts tradition. Wu-Shu, however, was not designed as a martial art (strictly illegal), and claims to the contrary date back only a decade or so, following on the popularity of Kung Fu.
http://www.shaolin.com/shaolin_history.aspx

Karate History

Most Western students of Asian martial arts, if they have done any research on the subject at all, will surely have come across references to Bodhidharma. He is known as "Daruma" in Japan and as often as not, this Indian Buddhist monk is cited as the prime source for all martial arts styles or at the very least, for any style which traces its roots back to the fabled Shaolin Temple. However, the question of his contributions to the martial arts and to Zen Buddhism and even of his very existence has been a matter of controversy among historians and martial arts scholars for many years (Spiessbach,1992).

As legend has it, the evolution of karate began over a thousand years ago, possibly as early as the fifth century BC when Bodhidharma arrived in Shaolin-si (small forest temple), China from India and taught Zen Buddhism. He also introduced a systematized set of exercises designed to strengthen the mind and body, exercises which allegedly marked the beginning of the Shaolin style of temple boxing. Bodhidharma's teachings later became the basis for the majority of Chinese martial arts. In truth, the origins of karate appear to be somewhat obscure and little is known about the early development of karate until it appeared in Okinawa.

china_map.gif
Okinawa is a small island of the group that comprises modern day Japan. It is the main island in the chain of Ryuku Islands which spans from Japan to Taiwan. Surrounded by coral, Okinawa is approximately 10 km (6 mi) wide and only about 110 km (less than 70 mi) long. It is situated 740 km (400 nautical mi) east of mainland China, 550 km (300 nautical miles) south of mainland Japan and an equal distance north of Taiwan. Being at the crossroads of major trading routes, its significance as a "resting spot" was first discovered by the Japanese. It later developed as a trade center for southeastern Asia, trading with Japan, China, Indo China, Thailand, Malaysia, Borneo and the Philippines.
chart_small.gif
In its earliest stages, the martial art known as "karate" was an indigenous form of closed fist fighting which was developed in Okinawa and called Te, or 'hand'. Weapons bans, imposed on the Okinawans at various points in their history, encouraged the refinement of empty-hand techniques and, for this reason, was trained in secret until modern times. Further refinement came with the influence of other martial arts brought by nobles and trade merchants to the island.

Te continued to develop over the years, primarily in three Okinawan cities: Shuri, Naha and Tomari. Each of these towns was a center to a different sect of society: kings and nobles, merchants and business people, and farmers and fishermen, respectively. For this reason, different forms of self-defense developed within each city and subsequently became known as Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Collectively they were called Okinawa-Te or Tode, 'Chinese hand'. Gradually, karate was divided into two main groups: Shorin-ryu which developed around Shuri and Tomari and Shorei-ryu which came from the Naha area. "It is important to note, however, that the towns of Shuri, Tomari, Naha are only a few miles apart, and that the differences between their arts were essentially ones of emphasis, not of kind. Beneath these surface differences, both the methods and aims of all Okinawan karate are one in the same" (Howard, 1991). Gichin Funakoshi goes further to suggest that these two styles were developed based on different physical requirements Funakoshi, 1935). Shorin-ryu was quick and linear with natural breathing while Shorei-ryu emphasized steady, rooted movements with breathing in synchrony with each movement. Interestingly, this concept of two basic styles also exist in kung-fu with a similar division of characteristics (Wong, 1978).
The Chinese character used to write Tode could also be pronounced 'kara' thus the name Te was replaced with kara te - jutsu or 'Chinese hand art' by the Okinawan Masters. This was later changed to karate-do by Gichin Funakoshi who adopted an alternate meaning for the Chinese character for kara, 'empty'. From this point on the term karate came to mean 'empty hand'. The Do in karate-do means 'way' or 'path', and is indicative of the discipline and philosophy of karate with moral and spiritual connotations.
k_symbols.gif
Now you tell me whats different in My History Knowledge. This sound pretty Close... Maybe I'm not so Un-Enlightened. HUH....? I have extencive Martial Knowledge But I don't know or have heard of Half of the Instructors mentioned on thei forum... But I don't call them FAKE or McDojo... I feel that they are martial Arts Brothers and I would be proud to know them.:asian:​
 
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BruceCalkins

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It's just all of these people keep bashing something I have devoted my life to and am proud. Mr E. McPeak is in this forum and I used to speek to his son. Hoping to save his Batavia NY school. He is a Several Time Over 9th degree But he is excepted here in this forum. I have stated that I reached 7th but due to the ranks in my system I took 10th for the system only. But this is not OK.

My Name and rank is honored in site right along with Mr. Mills
http://wcmaa.homestead.com/WCMAA.html

And Mr. McPeak Of Kempo, Sensei David Hutch, Sensei Robert Koch and Dr. Sachio Ashida Of Judo. But I do not deserve the same respect these men get.???
http://www.martialartsphotography.com/index.htm
(Pleaes be Patient in this site. As she just came to my school and did the Photo shots and Training shots. There will be at least one set of my teaching)

My training and My School are proud and I will not back down. I have given all the answers to your questions but you just use them to doubt and ask more question to try to see if you can trip me up. Then when I give you proff you don't believe it. As for the telekanisis.. Come to Bob's Event.. With his permission I'll demo it. ON FILM .. But them someone will claim Camera tricks...
 

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the stories of bodhidharma are legend. he was supposed to be 150 yrs old when he went to shaolin........and he apparently got mad when he fell asleep during meditation one time....so he cut off his eyelids.
 
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BruceCalkins

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Yes and History tells us of men in the Himalayas Having Children after they are 70 years old and living until they ate 150+... My Own Great Grandmother Lived and Lived well until she was 116. In Jamestown NY.

There is also scrolls telling of a Monk that sat in a cave in Meditation holding his arm up until it hardened from this position and he could not put it down. Then he had it Cut Off and This is Why the Monks will Bow With 1 hand in Prayer Position. Lots of History.
 

Don Roley

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SokeCalkins said:
The Information I posted was a direct Statement from Bujinkan and Soke Masaaki Hatsumi from one of the web sites He Sponcers..


No Mr Calkins, you are incorrect again. The site and contents are not written, approved, "sponcered" (sic) or pre screened by Masaaki Hatsumi.

How can we who want to help you overcome your ignorance do so when you fail to use critical reading and thinking skills? The web site is clearly set up in Stockton California and run by one of the members of the Bujikan. It makes no claim of being the official mouth piece for the head of the Bujinkan.

And the site is full of misconceptions. Possibly because it is geared toward children. If you had read the original thread that this was split off from you would see that the story of the ninja being a persecuted minority and having to develop the skills of ninjutsu to survive has had a stake run through it's heart. The arguments were backed up by logic and verifiable sources.

But it seems that you were a bit more interested in disrupting the forum in order to prove that, "I have extencive Martial Knowledge" than actually trying to learn and share with others.

That is rather a disturbing peek into your soul mr Calkins. Martial arts are not for the purpose of building up fame and ego. They are supposed to be about bettering the person. Your arguing that you are some sort of person that should be listened to is perhaps the biggest block in you ever achieving any sort of competency in the martial arts.

Just take a look at the stance you have taken. Instead of accepting the facts when you were shown to be wrong about the ninja using nunchaku and the like and learning from the experience, you tried to set a trap and build up your image as an expert instead. The fact that you fell on your face is besides the point. The point is that instead of learning from those that know better than you, your purpose was merely to be seen as a respectable voice on the subject. You use the logical fallacy called "appeal to authority." First in trying to present something as being from Hatsumi and demanding that we respect it without question- but also in the way you are now acting like you are the expert that we should bow to.

That is not something a martial artist should desire. If you had more experience under a competent teacher you might understand.

And we do not demand that anyone accept what other people say without proof here on martialtalk. Even an expert can expect to have to show his sources and chain of logic. Take a look at the stuff that I post. It would be easy for me to point to the fact that I have lived in Japan and trained in ninjutsu for double digit years to serve as my authority. But instead I give sources and lay out the logic I come to conclusions by. So why do you think that a person like yourself with no training history in ninjutsu at all and who uses Japanese words incorrectly should expect to be treated as if you did not have to site sources because you tell us you have extencive (sic) knowledge?
 

clfsean

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SokeCalkins said:
There is also scrolls telling of a Monk that sat in a cave in Meditation holding his arm up until it hardened from this position and he could not put it down. Then he had it Cut Off and This is Why the Monks will Bow With 1 hand in Prayer Position. Lots of History.
That's incorrect. The legend is about the 1st student of Damo & the Chan school of Buddhism he brought to Shaolin.

According to the legend the monk wanted to be accepted as a student of Damo. Damo refused to accept him until he was ready to make a sacrifice. The monk went away & meditated on it until he figured out what it was. So he went back to Damo with a sword & cut his own arm off as a gesture of his sincerety. He became Damo's disciple & first abbott of Shaolin teaching the Chan school of Buddhism. The disciple was Hui Ko (phonetic spelling... gotta check my notes).

There's a pavilion at the Shaolin Temple dedicated to Kui Ko there. Again, gotta check my notes & all for the name, but there's a set of statuettes of Damo, Hui Ko & a 3rd monk there. Hui Ko is in Damo's robes, given to him by Damo, with an arm missing.
 

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clfsean said:
That's incorrect. The legend is about the 1st student of Damo & the Chan school of Buddhism he brought to Shaolin.

According to the legend the monk wanted to be accepted as a student of Damo. Damo refused to accept him until he was ready to make a sacrifice. The monk went away & meditated on it until he figured out what it was. So he went back to Damo with a sword & cut his own arm off as a gesture of his sincerety. He became Damo's disciple & first abbott of Shaolin teaching the Chan school of Buddhism. The disciple was Hui Ko (phonetic spelling... gotta check my notes).

There's a pavilion at the Shaolin Temple dedicated to Kui Ko there. Again, gotta check my notes & all for the name, but there's a set of statuettes of Damo, Hui Ko & a 3rd monk there. Hui Ko is in Damo's robes, given to him by Damo, with an arm missing.

I remember that legend. I thought that Mr Calkins was off again, but it is nice to hear the actual legend.

But, to be a dear, do you think that you could show Mr Calkins how easy it is to back up what you say with some sort of proof that we can check for ourselves? I realize that it is a legend, but you can prove that it is not something you dreamed up or made a mistake in remembering like Mr Calkins seemed to do with his version of the story?
 
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BruceCalkins

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clfsean said:
That's incorrect. The legend is about the 1st student of Damo & the Chan school of Buddhism he brought to Shaolin.

According to the legend the monk wanted to be accepted as a student of Damo. Damo refused to accept him until he was ready to make a sacrifice. The monk went away & meditated on it until he figured out what it was. So he went back to Damo with a sword & cut his own arm off as a gesture of his sincerety. He became Damo's disciple & first abbott of Shaolin teaching the Chan school of Buddhism. The disciple was Hui Ko (phonetic spelling... gotta check my notes).

There's a pavilion at the Shaolin Temple dedicated to Kui Ko there. Again, gotta check my notes & all for the name, but there's a set of statuettes of Damo, Hui Ko & a 3rd monk there. Hui Ko is in Damo's robes, given to him by Damo, with an arm missing.
Yes I agree.. I have heard that version as well. It depends what area you get the story from. Some say it was an act of Sacrifice, and others have told it as when he went away to Meditate he was in the position I spoke of and the arm atrophied and froze into a raised position ...Then he cut it off. I have heard it both ways.
 

Don Roley

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SokeCalkins said:
Yes I agree.. I have heard that version as well. It depends what area you get the story from. Some say it was an act of Sacrifice, and others have told it as when he went away to Meditate he was in the position I spoke of and the arm atrophied and froze into a raised position ...Then he cut it off. I have heard it both ways.

Ah, I just asked for proof of the other version, now I would like to see if you can provide proof of what you have said. Surely you can provide proof to what you say. There are so many people making jokes about you I would like to show them an example of how you can actually back up what you say.
 
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BruceCalkins

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WOW did Mr. Roley get in a tuff... Or What... I posted fact and even then he had to try to make up a way to disprove it... Sorry but The Site I listed generates back to not only the Main School Site in Japan but If you are calling me a Lier than I would have to Think you are calling the owner of this site a lier and saying they are trying to Mislead the Students.... Young or not.. I didn't see an age for truth on this site. It is available for all students of this style and open to the public. I would think a grat man such as Soke Masaaki Hatsumi Would not allow his name and likeness to be used to fake out the public about the history of his style... I think you are just trying to BS us now to Save Face. I'm sorry I had to post it that way But I was getting slamed and asked for Proof of the history from a different site and HERE IT IS ! ! ! I didn't want to do this. I just wanted to join a forum and interact with my fellow Martial Artist. Not have to constantly defend myself and my style. You all caused that. So take your medicine and read the Proof. Again.
 

clfsean

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Don Roley said:
I remember that legend. I thought that Mr Calkins was off again, but it is nice to hear the actual legend.

But, to be a dear, do you think that you could show Mr Calkins how easy it is to back up what you say with some sort of proof that we can check for ourselves? I realize that it is a legend, but you can prove that it is not something you dreamed up or made a mistake in remembering like Mr Calkins seemed to do with his version of the story?
Yep... I'll have to check notes & websites. I should be able to post something up tonight after I get in from teaching.

I'll start reviewing web resources today & print tonight. I'll post more shortly.

****edit****

References to Hui Ko (Wei Ho) ...

http://www.lvlohans.com/index.php?scr=HIST -- scroll to Shaolin History of Bodhidharma (Da Mo)

http://taipei.tzuchi.org.tw/tzquart/99winter/qw17.htm -- Story of Bodhidharma (Da Mo). Scroll maybe 3/4 of the way down the page or simply look for Shen Kuang.

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Bodhidharma#Bodhidharma_and_Hui-ko -- Quick reference to Hui Ko & Bodhidharma (Da Mo) with the reference of the story.

Don... I'll break out the white paper tonight when I get home if need be.

Bruce... learn from the above.
 

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