Bruce Lee and Martial Arts.

[Samurai]

"his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful"

If you are talking about the book series "BRUCE LEE's Fighting Methods" Volumes 1-4 then you should understand that Bruce Lee did not write these books. The text was written by Mitoshi Uyehara who at the time was the editor-in-chief of Black Belt magazine and a good friend of Bruce Lee.

Lee agreed to pose for the pictures and Uyehara wrote the actual text. This information was passed on by Steve Golden on of the first-generation Bruce Lee students in the LA era.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
IMO, you should reread his books again before making ridiculous comment.

Yup that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Ridiculous or not as am I. My advice is look into some of the very very early asian writings and you'll see nothing that was said was new, and some of it blatently plaguerized.

As far as his fighting methods go, why would he call them "His books" pose for the pictures, and have the text be written by someone else? I'm just curious. I guess when reading his books, or books that claim to be his, and in light of this discussion, I understand are not, are simply if you step back and look at them objectivly you see he has, according to the books, a very interesting fighting method. So if not JKD shown, what is it?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Bruce Lee made tremenduous amount of innovation in JKD. You obviously don't have a clue there, for you to make this ridiculous claim that he plagialized from other publications. JKD borrowed its fighting concepts from WingChun. That is hardly plagiarizing. Bruce Lee's primary martial art was WingChun. But I doubt this is what you were referring to. Btw, what are these " very very early asian writings" ? Care to enlighten us there? Please give us some examples.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Btw, what are these " very very early asian writings" ? Care to enlighten us there? Please give us some examples.

A lot of Bruce's writings, particularly the more philosophical quotes, are either paraphrased from Taoist and Buddhist texts, or direct copies.

What he did was apply them to a martial arts context. One must remember that he was a philosophy student in college.

Cthulhu

 

[Baoquan]

I think bandying the term "plaguerized" around, re: Lee's books, is a little off target, even though its a given that he did make use of earlier texts - plaguerism is re-presenting someone else's work as your own, which is naughty. Making references to things that have gone before, however, is not plaguerism - just smart - who wants to reinvent the wheel just to make commentary on how best it can be used?

That is all Lee did in the Tao....make commentary on how, in his opinion, many things already extant could best be used. Its a good book. I recommend it. Is it the soveriegn text of our art? no...and i dont think Lee intended it would be.

The Tao, IMHO, is an excellent synthesis of technique, training methods and philosophy.

As for whether Lee could beat up Superman....who really gives a $h!t? He was a smart guy. He was a skilled artist. He had some ideas about martial arts. He wrote some books about them.

Smoke 'em if u got 'em.

 

[James Kovacich]

Bruces influences in the martial arts are widespread and whats wrong is the way people don't give him his props! Numerous systems today have been created or modified from traditional based on Bruces concepts and technical prowess!

To name a couple John Pellegrines Combat Hapkido. Do you think he would of made that drastic of changes without what bruce already put in place! Gary Dills Bushido kempo was created from the technical aspects of Jeet Kune Do! Many many more have followed suit including me! I have the right, because I've put my time in! And my "TRAINING" downline from Bruce has changed "MY ART" forever!!!

Talk is cheap! If you haven't actually experienced "Bruces Art" first hand, you should keep your trap shut!

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by akja
Talk is cheap! If you haven't actually experienced "Bruces Art" first hand, you should keep your trap shut!

Yup, and here we have an exellent example ladies and gentleman! Thank you kind sir, please tell us more?

 

[yilisifu]

I HAVE experienced his "art" firsthand. I agree with Hollywood. If Lee's ideas influenced you, that's fine...........for you. Lee's ideas were seriously mis-stated and/or misinterpreted by the martial arts magazines of the day and this had led to a good deal of confusion about what he did and did not advocate.

He was a fair actor - not really top of the line. He was a good martial artist but he never really said much that was different from Wing Chun's standard party line.

 

[bob919]

IMO Lee is not the god many make him out to be. He was human. He didn't have the best technique, he wasn't the fastest (There's always someone faster) and watching his movies today you can see flaws. Depending on where you take your martial arts and why, his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful. I've heard when you go into Hollywood you need to make a decision, you can be a Martial Artist or an Actor, but not both. Again IMO Lee is a spot on the blotter of the world of martial arts, a noticible spot, but nothing more. And he's dead

in the movies he was just doing the showy stuff we know he aint no god but in real fighting he would never do high kicks and stuck to simple effective tools such as the straight blast.
watching his movies is a very bad way of judging the way he fights; incase you didn't know, what you see in movies usually isn't real

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, what Lee did in the movies, was not (by his own admission) how he "really" fought at all.

The nunchakus he used in Enter the Dragon weren't real; they were rubber (he injured himself with the real ones because he'd never used this weapon before).....he DID learn how to use them very well, however.

And the bottle held by his opponent in the fight scene in the courtyard was made of safety glass because he cut himself when they did the original scene with real glass.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
Yup, and here we have an exellent example ladies and gentleman! Thank you kind sir, please tell us more?

I've stated it before my Sigung teaches "ORIGINAL" teachings of Bruce and James Lee. NOT THE CONCEPTS! They have expanded upon the original but its not mixerd up like the concepts.

Bruce and James Lee to Felix Macias Sr. to Felix Macias Jr. to Me!
Thats what I'm talking about. You guys "DWELL" on "MOVIES" whats that. And quit thinking that you guys opinions are "BETTER" than the publications such as Black Belt, Inside Kung-Fu and all the rest that to this day give him his due credit. Get off that.

Yilisifu, who gave you firsthand experience? Or you can't disclose your sources again!

http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/
Click the students link, my Sigung is there. wheres your Yilisifu?

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

DO YOU THINK THAT DAN INOSANTOS ORGANIZATION WOULD BE WHAT IS IF HE NEVER MET BRUCE? DAN EXPANDED GREATLY, BUT HE HIMSELF GIVES MUCH CREDIT TO BRUCE TO CHANGING HIS OUTLOOK ON THE MARTIAL ARTS! HAVE YOU SEEN HIM TEACH AN AMERICAN KENPO CLASS LATELY? NO!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Bruce's primary concern was to be a movie star.

But he sure could hit fast and hit hard, much better than most.

 

[James Kovacich]

BICKERING SUCKS!!

I may of come out to hard!

HOLLYWOOD. I stuck your lineage in there on purpose! Because you directly talked down "MY LINEAGE!" Simple as that. As far respect in the arts, OBVIOUSLY ON THE NET THERE ISN'T ANY but in the DOJO, DOJANG OR KWOON that is something that comes from many years experience amongst your peers.

In the dojo, no rank is really recognized until you reach Sankyu!
Hollywood, where your at IN RANK today (Combat Hapkido-8th Gup, Kodokan Judo-4th Kyu ) I was over 20 years ago!

Granted I don't know you, you may be the next Pedro Rizzo, who knows, but my lineage has gotten trashed a bit by nothing but words, talk about movies and books. The notes for those books were taken between 30-40 years ago! Of course we've grown as a martial art community!

YILISIFU. Not by lineage, but by the martial art world in general, you are my senior! But I'm not that much younger than you and you too have directly talked down my lineage! I see you have much experience! So why would you use movies and magazines as proof? You should know better!

RESPECT GOES ALONG WAY IN THIS WORLD and it must be earned and that is why I'm writing this now.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I do have problems with people going about character assasination of a dead person (or a living person) using hearsay but refusing to offer proof. Pretty low, if you ask me. But I doubt that is YiliSifu's intent.

As for other people who do not know anything about Bruce Lee's martial art but yet offer their opinions, it is a free country. Just expect to be rebutted.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Is there a big difference between what Felix Macias' system of JKD and Dan Inosanto's? I'm currently learning Dan Inosanto's system, and I'mjust curious as to what I might be missing out on.

Respect.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Inosantos is the Concepts method and has evolved quite a bit. Macias method is Original Jun Fan Gung-Fu as taught by James Lee expanded upon by Felix Macias Sr. and by Felix Macias Jr., hope that helps.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

So the concepts are ideas gathered after Lee's death, i understand that. Another question for you, if you would be so kind... is do the concepts exclude the orgignal teachings of Lee? Or are they built upon the ideas of Lee? I'm just a little confused as to how these to variations of the art are divided.
:asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

BICKERING SUCKS!!

I may of come out to hard!

HOLLYWOOD. I stuck your lineage in there on purpose! Because you directly talked down "MY LINEAGE!" Simple as that. As far respect in the arts, OBVIOUSLY ON THE NET THERE ISN'T ANY but in the DOJO, DOJANG OR KWOON that is something that comes from many years experience amongst your peers.

In the dojo, no rank is really recognized until you reach Sankyu!
Hollywood, where your at IN RANK today (Combat Hapkido-8th Gup, Kodokan Judo-4th Kyu ) I was over 20 years ago

Good for you sir, you've been at it longer then I have. And yet since I talk you down you talk me down? I'd expect that from others on this board, but no certianly from some on in the arts for over twenty years. And the rank when I'm on board is blue, my RW rank is a non issue, unless, as has happened here, is called. Yes, I am a lower rank then you, so I'll defer to you're knowledge. But I still hold my thoughts, and my opinions on JKD, to be mine, regardless. And no, I've never pulled own your lineage. How did I to that if I may ask? I simply stated what I thought of Bruce and the Martial Artas, and I untitled to my opinion, as I stated in my post. Altough you were on the money. My SGM is a JKD iinstcutor as well, yo you're point is valid.

Granted I don't know you, you may be the next Pedro Rizzo, who knows, but my lineage has gotten trashed a bit by nothing but words, talk about movies and books. The notes for those books were taken between 30-40 years ago! Of course we've grown as a martial art community!

Never said we hadn't, or didn't.

 

[James Kovacich]

The concepts were Bruces concepts on training to discover "your truth in martial arts", they are concepts that the individual can adapt and use as needed.

The only differances are that the "JKD Concepts" people contiually add and subtract and modify as needed.

The "Original JKD" people teach based off of the original Jeet Kune Do physical techniques and branch off from there. They do add and modify as needed, they just don't add so much technique from other arts that it dosen't resemble the original JKD anymore.

All JKD is differant depending on who you learn it from. Some people think that you can teach yourself JKD. That isn't true. What they are doing is skipping through the "JKD process" of self discovery and going to the final steps and calling it JKD. Thats not how it was taught, so to use the name it should be taught right.

To use the JKD name you should first learn Jun Fan Gung-Fu from a qualified instructor. Whatever he teaches you becomes yours to adapt, modify as needed to "fit you." The problems that arrive is instructors modify quite a bit and they teach. Its OK to teach the new modifications but some leave out the original Jun Fan Gung-Fu, the starting point. So in essence the student (unknowingly) is skipping through the "process" also.

If your learning the Inosanto method you will learn Jun Fan Gung-Fu and the expanded JKD. If you are learning from Inosanto lineage but from a student of Dans or a student of a student of Dans then who knows.

But I know that Dan has got to be the highest authority on Jeet Kune Do, thats a given.

"My Art" is all mine and it is differant thats OK, it works for me!

 

[James Kovacich]

Hollywood,
we have something in common, we have the same first name, James, the name that was given to Jesus brother, so you've got to be a great guy!


We all have opinions that are valid "depending on whos listening."
Thats the problem, the urge to be right. Its all after the fact and a lot of the time I get caught up in things and the next day I think of myself as a fool. No kidding, sometimes we type faster than our brains!

Realistically, I trained Hapkido, for a short time, when I was a teenager under O Nam Ku in Fremont, Ca., he was old school, not much like what you see today. What your SGM has done to Hapkido is a great thing, if it wasn't then Korea wouldn't of recognized Combat Hapkido as an official "Kido" art!