BRUCE CALKINS & US MARINE CORP

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TimoS

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Rick Wade said:
He said their is no way they would let a private fresh out of boot camp be an instructor at a school where you would be teaching much more senior people.

Doesn't really surprise me. However, we must keep in mind that apparently mr. Calkins never actually claimed to have taught there, he merely implied such by saying that he worked with those people, so in theory at least he could have been an outsider ? Or could he ? For obvious reasons I don't know much about Marine Corps (or any other branch of US military for that matter)
 

Rick Wade

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TimoS said:
Doesn't really surprise me. However, we must keep in mind that apparently mr. Calkins never actually claimed to have taught there, he merely implied such by saying that he worked with those people, so in theory at least he could have been an outsider ? Or could he ? For obvious reasons I don't know much about Marine Corps (or any other branch of US military for that matter)


Hell I work with Navy Seals but I'm not one who cares who you work with. :CTF:
 

Robert Carver

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Rick:

There might be some confusion over the term CCX with regard to Marine Corps Boot Camp. CCX stands for "Combat Conditioning Exercise" (remember X in the Marine lexicon means "exercise", like CAX "Combined Arms Exercise"), but it is not a particular "school" offered at Parris Island or any other Marine Corps Recruit Depot, but rather is a particular part of the Marine Boot Camp training. Normally conducted around Training Day 20, this involves the recruits initial introduction to some close combat techniques, bayonet training and then practical training with the pugil sticks. This training is conducted at both Marine Corps Recruit Depots and at the Office Candidate School, Quantico, VA.

With regard to those who taught the course, it would have been a drill instructor who was assigned duties (such as teaching close combat) other than being "on the street" with a training platoon. In 1984, only Sergeant's and above were sent to drill instructor school and every once in a while, you might find the really exceptional Corporal. So there is no way a junior Marine that had not been through DI School would have been training recruits.

One other thing you might want to keep in mind based on your own experience. The US Naval Services are very specific in the use of the term "school" with regard to how a course of instruction is classified. A "school" is something that one attends to obtain a primary MOS/Rating or additional MOS/additional qualifications for a rating. Kinda like when you went to A School (I assume you are a Corpsman) to get your initial rating, and then maybe a C School or two in order to qualify in something like respiratory therapy. As far as a Close Combat School, there was not an actual MOS for a Close Combat Instructor (8551/8552) until the LINE program was developed in the late 80's (I think around 89). So no formal school existed until that time. Once it was established, the instructors course was taught at Quantico, Virginia, with then Gunnery Sergeant Ronald Donvito (founder of the LINE system) as its chief instructor.
 

Rick Wade

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Robert Carver said:
Rick:

There might be some confusion over the term CCX with regard to Marine Corps Boot Camp. CCX stands for "Combat Conditioning Exercise" (remember X in the Marine lexicon means "exercise", like CAX "Combined Arms Exercise"), but it is not a particular "school" offered at Parris Island or any other Marine Corps Recruit Depot, but rather is a particular part of the Marine Boot Camp training. Normally conducted around Training Day 20, this involves the recruits initial introduction to some close combat techniques, bayonet training and then practical training with the pugil sticks. This training is conducted at both Marine Corps Recruit Depots and at the Office Candidate School, Quantico, VA.

With regard to those who taught the course, it would have been a drill instructor who was assigned duties (such as teaching close combat) other than being "on the street" with a training platoon. In 1984, only Sergeant's and above were sent to drill instructor school and every once in a while, you might find the really exceptional Corporal. So there is no way a junior Marine that had not been through DI School would have been training recruits.

One other thing you might want to keep in mind based on your own experience. The US Naval Services are very specific in the use of the term "school" with regard to how a course of instruction is classified. A "school" is something that one attends to obtain a primary MOS/Rating or additional MOS/additional qualifications for a rating. Kinda like when you went to A School (I assume you are a Corpsman) to get your initial rating, and then maybe a C School or two in order to qualify in something like respiratory therapy. As far as a Close Combat School, there was not an actual MOS for a Close Combat Instructor (8551/8552) until the LINE program was developed in the late 80's (I think around 89). So no formal school existed until that time. Once it was established, the instructors course was taught at Quantico, Virginia, with then Gunnery Sergeant Ronald Donvito (founder of the LINE system) as its chief instructor.


Robert,
I totally agree with you and that is what the Gunny said. I just didn't translate real well. As for the School I can't speak for Marine Corps Schools. But I did know that a the Military especially the Marine Corps isn't going to bring you in off the street, enlist you, and then start letting you teach the combatives course (or what ever it is called). Now that isn't to say that Bruce wasn't attached to that command as something other than an instructor maybe an admin clerk or a supply clerk but he definitely wasn't an instructor.

Respectfully Rick

Hey I'm starting to sound like Clyde
 

Tripitaka of AA

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I PMd Bruce with a link to this thread at 9am (I'm in the UK, on British Summer Time :) ). The very lovely system has shown me that Bruce read it at 6pm (that's 1800hrs for all you military types). My clock now says ... 2236hrs. Hhmmmmm....
 

Gemini

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Okay, let me make sure I have this straight.

My brother-in-law is a Green Beret (really). He and his buddy helped me put my tile floor down. So theoretically, I worked with Green Berets. Sound right?
 

Rick Wade

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Gemini said:
Okay, let me make sure I have this straight.

My brother-in-law is a Green Beret (really). He and his buddy helped me put my tile floor down. So theoretically, I worked with Green Berets. Sound right?


Wow you were a Green Beret? LOL

This is better than the Seven degrees game.

V/R

Rick
 

Robert Carver

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Rick Wade said:
Robert,
I totally agree with you and that is what the Gunny said. I just didn't translate real well. As for the School I can't speak for Marine Corps Schools. But I did know that a the Military especially the Marine Corps isn't going to bring you in off the street, enlist you, and then start letting you teach the combatives course (or what ever it is called). Now that isn't to say that Bruce wasn't attached to that command as something other than an instructor maybe an admin clerk or a supply clerk but he definitely wasn't an instructor.

Respectfully Rick

Hey I'm starting to sound like Clyde
I figured it was a service related translation error. ;) My wife is a US Coast Guard CPO and sometimes she says stuff that sounds real familiar to this former Jarhead, only to realize that the Coast Guard has a slightly different definition.

BTW, be careful over there!
 
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JanneM

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Rick Wade said:
Wow you were a Green Beret? LOL

This is better than the Seven degrees game.

V/R

Rick
If we go down that road then I am the next king of Grat Britan.
My fathers second cousins husbands sons fiance was married to price Charles.
Should I claim my crown now or later?
 

Jmh7331

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Wow, I was stationed at Ft. Bragg and went to school at the USAJFKSWCS (U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center & School) and "worked with" just about every "Special Operations" group. I should start my own military branch! Now, what to call myself....
 

Gemini

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Jmh7331 said:
I've applied to the Turkey Federation to see what I can call myself.
You're new here so be aware, "Stooge-Fu" has been taken.
 

Soulend

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Hello everyone. I've been watching this thread with a bit of interest. I am a GySgt in the USMC, and am stationed in Beaufort, SC. I live about 5 miles away from Parris Island (where I went to boot camp) and have been here since 1988. My brother was also in the Marine Corps, and was in Drill Instructor school on Parris Island in 1982. He also did recruit training there.

Unless I am understanding incorrectly:

It is readily apparent that Mr. Calkins could not have instructed at any CC course for four years while he was active duty, as it appears that he was in for only four years. Close combat instructors, like swim instructors, are drill instructors who are 'on quota', which means that after about 9-12 months of pushing platoons, they get something of a 'break' by doing something different. Thus, there are no close combat instructors who are on their first enlistment (as they would have to be at least a Sergeant by this time, and have enough time left in their contract to finish their tour on the drill field) and certainly not at the beginning of it.

The time we are talking about is pre-L.I.N.E., and recruits were taught bayonet, basic judo throws, and some joint manipulations. Very basic stuff because of the learning curve of recruits and time constraints. Neither I, my brother, or any CC instructor I've talked to have ever heard of having any 'guest instructor' come in to teach, as it simply wasn't neccesary. Outside agencies or persons are simply not brought in to train recruits.

Close combat schools in the Marine Corps are not, nor ever have been, referred to as "Self-Defense" schools, because self-defense is not the purpose. "Self Defense" is a civilian appellation, while engaging an enemy combatant is generally offensive in nature.

There never was any "SP training" at Parris Island. See Robert Carver's comments, he was quoting yours truly.

If he was somehow trying to associate himself with MCMAP...well, that would be rather silly. The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program wasn't even dreamed of at this time, and is taught only by Marines to Marines.

There are other red flags too, but I'll leave it at that. The only possible truth I could see is that he taught an off-duty martial arts program on base through Special Services (who run the gym, the library, recreational equipment rentals, etc.). In which case it wouldn't be any more impressive than teaching at a civilian dojo, and certainly couldn't be properly referred to as "the USMC Self Defense School".

-GySgt David Craik
 

Robert Carver

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Soulend said:
There are other red flags too, but I'll leave it at that. The only possible truth I could see is that he taught an off-duty martial arts program on base through Special Services (who run the gym, the library, recreational equipment rentals, etc.). In which case it wouldn't be any more impressive than teaching at a civilian dojo, and certainly couldn't be properly referred to as "the USMC Self Defense School".

-GySgt David Craik
Thanks Gunny for chiming in! I figured this thread would not keep you away for long!
 

bushi jon

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Fellas I could be wrong(most like me) I do believe the Marines droped there line program for ther own martial arts training with belts and all. Not to say the claims are true but there is a thing called the freedom of information act. Plus why do we not end this crud and talk about positive stuff.
 

Tgace

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When people make claims about teaching in nonexistent military schools..the timelines they themselves post just dont add up, constant bizarre claims etc. what, as martial artists, are we supposed to do? I agree that dragging someone who keeps to themselves out into the open is a classic "witch hunt". But when martial artists make public claims, open websites with these claims and spread this stuff to the unwitting public...well I dont have a whole lot of sympathy for them.

What effect do we really have here?? I guess thats another question.
 
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