Brown Belt Destroys 3 Dan Black Belt

[dvcochran]

Another factor: attributes. If one fighter is stronger, faster, more durable, etc, that can often overcome a disadvantage in experience, skill, or knowledge.

I have to argue my case, I cannot go so far as to say I disagree. When I was competing and went to the Nationals and Olympic trials I was 24-25. I was older and slower than most people I competed against but was smarter and better at playing the chess match. Maybe harder and definitely more hard headed. I will say you are correct most of the time but there are exceptions.

 

[skribs]

this was my point in Dolph.

You posted that while I was writing.

 

[skribs]

I have to argue my case, I cannot go so far as to say I disagree. When I was competing and went to the Nationals and Olympic trials I was 24-25. I was older and slower than most people I competed against but was smarter and better at playing the chess match. Maybe harder and definitely more hard headed. I will say you are correct most of the time but there are exceptions.

My Dad likes to say "Old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm." I have to say I get beat both by the older guys with more experience and by the younger guys who are faster.

 

[Martial D]

This just goes to show that its not just rank but how you got your rank, what standards you needed to meet to get it, ect.

How many forms you know/how well you can do them has nothing to do with fighting ability.

Brown belt guy has a far superior understanding of distance and timing, which showed imediately.

 

[TSDTexan]

How many forms you know/how well you can do them has nothing to do with fighting ability.

If your meaning raw ability maybe I would agree.
But I would argue the case that properly understanding and habitually executing forms has a huge role in acquiring and honing combative skills.

Forms teach distance, posture, body movement (taisubaki), balance, timing, and develop muscle memory for quickly executing chains of combinations.

 

[TSDTexan]

.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have to argue my case, I cannot go so far as to say I disagree. When I was competing and went to the Nationals and Olympic trials I was 24-25. I was older and slower than most people I competed against but was smarter and better at playing the chess match. Maybe harder and definitely more hard headed. I will say you are correct most of the time but there are exceptions.

It can absolutely go both ways. I’ve beaten more physically formidable opponents many times using my skill and experience. I’ve also lost many times to more physically formidable opponents even though I had the edge in skill and experience. That’s why I said physical attributes can often overcome a disadvantage in skill, not that they always will.

 

[dvcochran]

It can absolutely go both ways. I’ve beaten more physically formidable opponents many times using my skill and experience. I’ve also lost many times to more physically formidable opponents even though I had the edge in skill and experience. That’s why I said physical attributes can often overcome a disadvantage in skill, not that they always will.

Naturally, the same has happened to me more times than I care to remember. I buy in to the "any given day" quality of most kinds of competition. It is certainly where the underdog wins his stripes.

 

[drop bear]

It can absolutely go both ways. I’ve beaten more physically formidable opponents many times using my skill and experience. I’ve also lost many times to more physically formidable opponents even though I had the edge in skill and experience. That’s why I said physical attributes can often overcome a disadvantage in skill, not that they always will.

Seeing as how physical formidability comes from training. Isnt it a skill?

 

[dvcochran]

Seeing as how physical formidability comes from training. Isnt it a skill?

I think his is saying those fortunate people who are naturally physically gifted. I had sub 4.4 speed in high school and college. I could run past most people but early on I sometimes did not have a clue what to do after in had passed everyone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seeing as how physical formidability comes from training. Isnt it a skill?

I guess that depends how we define skill, and what's meant by physical formidability. If it's just the attributes of strength, reach, and mobility, that might not be learned skills (mobility could be, or might be mostly natural, and strength is arguable). If we define skill as anything developed by practice or study, then strength is a skill, and probably mobility. If the definition requires purposeful practice (in other words trying to develop the attribute) then strength and mobility might be considered "natural". Obviously reach and natural flexibility wouldn't be, and some portion of weight advantage might not be.

So, yeah, it could be.

 

[Martial D]

If your meaning raw ability maybe I would agree.
But I would argue the case that properly understanding and habitually executing forms has a huge role in acquiring and honing combative skills.

Forms teach distance, posture, body movement (taisubaki), balance, timing, and develop muscle memory for quickly executing chains of combinations.

I would like to see that argument. A good place to start would be some sort of demonstration of traditional movements used in forms being used live.

In my experience, and according to litterally all the evidence I've ever seen(excluding tightly regulated karate/tkd point sparring matches), all of that flys out the window and turns into sloppy kickboxing when it counts.

 

[frank raud]

There was a blue belt in traditional jiu jitsu who managed to be 23 time world kickboxing champion. It ain't always the belt.

 

[wab25]

I would like to see that argument. A good place to start would be some sort of demonstration of traditional movements used in forms being used live.

These aren't pretty. But, it does show that what is practiced in kata, has use in fights, today. Whats missing is the understanding of what these things were. As we have moved towards more stylized sport... we have forgotten what these moves actually were. Karate's famous "front stance, down block," is more throw, than blocking a kick with the smallest bones in your arm.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

 

[Martial D]

These aren't pretty. But, it does show that what is practiced in kata, has use in fights, today. Whats missing is the understanding of what these things were. As we have moved towards more stylized sport... we have forgotten what these moves actually were. Karate's famous "front stance, down block," is more throw, than blocking a kick with the smallest bones in your arm.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

Lyoto, Wonderboy, sage, a few other karate guys have managed to adapt karate stuff into their fighting game, but even these fellas use mostly kickboxing/boxing style striking most of the time.

Same goes with Ferguson and Jones using stuff found in wing Chun. Etc.

 

[wab25]

Lyoto, Wonderboy, sage, a few other karate guys have managed to adapt karate stuff into their fighting game, but even these fellas use mostly kickboxing/boxing style striking most of the time.

Ok, so I am not sure what you are looking for then. Here is what you asked for:

I would like to see that argument. A good place to start would be some sort of demonstration of traditional movements used in forms being used live.

The article I posted showed Lyoto using Karate's famous down block to throw his opponent, a Judo player. That would be a demonstration of a traditional movement, used in forms being used live.

Are you looking for the whole kata to be used in a fight, move for move? Thats not going to happen. Only a few people actually believe that is their purpose. They are used to teach stance, movement, power generation, flow, distancing.... all kinds of things. They are not a master choreography of moves that will win a fight for you, if done in that order.

Yes, Lyoto had to "adapt" that move to work on a live opponent... if by "adapt" you mean, "use the original application of that move, as defined by the art's founder." When Karate turned into a point fighting game, that movement somehow became a block for the opponents kick. If playing tag, this works great. Even though this is what is taught now, at the McDojo in the shopping mall... that was not the original intent of that movement.

The guys you mention and a few others, are "adapting," (going back to the original meanings of these movements) and reintroducing them, effectively. Since they are no longer being used for point fighting tag, these moves have to be used differently, than has been taught in recent years. However, they are still effective, in full contact, once they are understood for what they were, when the system was formed.

 

[Martial D]

Ok, so I am not sure what you are looking for then. Here is what you asked for:
The article I posted showed Lyoto using Karate's famous down block to throw his opponent, a Judo player. That would be a demonstration of a traditional movement, used in forms being used live.

Are you looking for the whole kata to be used in a fight, move for move? Thats not going to happen. Only a few people actually believe that is their purpose. They are used to teach stance, movement, power generation, flow, distancing.... all kinds of things. They are not a master choreography of moves that will win a fight for you, if done in that order.

Yes, Lyoto had to "adapt" that move to work on a live opponent... if by "adapt" you mean, "use the original application of that move, as defined by the art's founder." When Karate turned into a point fighting game, that movement somehow became a block for the opponents kick. If playing tag, this works great. Even though this is what is taught now, at the McDojo in the shopping mall... that was not the original intent of that movement.

The guys you mention and a few others, are "adapting," (going back to the original meanings of these movements) and reintroducing them, effectively. Since they are no longer being used for point fighting tag, these moves have to be used differently, than has been taught in recent years. However, they are still effective, in full contact, once they are understood for what they were, when the system was formed.

Yes, movements as a whole. Sure, people can land kicks used also in karate, or vertical punches found in wing Chun, etc and adapt that to actual fighting. You can also convert a model T with modern parts to do a buck twenty on the highway.

Which in an of itself is a poor argument for the model T as a race car.

Sure, useful stuff can be plucked from a lot of TMA systems, but the fact TMA guys get clobbered without adding a LOT of additional training 99/100 times does tell a tale.

 

[TSDTexan]

I would like to see that argument. A good place to start would be some sort of demonstration of traditional movements used in forms being used live.

This is from an older post of mine, but I thought you might appreciate it.

Kata trains the body, and the brain, the physical movements and non-movements (of those that would be used within a fight) at a deep neurological level.

Done long enough the brain develops serious neurological pathways that significantly speed up complex movements.

For an example please watch:

The young boy started performing his cup stacking kata called “The Cycle” (as in the cup stacking cycle), and in the beginning it took him between 120 to 150 seconds perform the task. (2 to 2 & 1/2 minutes)

After a number of years (and in about 3600 total hours), his practice of the routine had reduced the time down to 5 seconds.
Even blind folded.

This an efficiency gain (percentage rounded to 2 decimal places).

95.83% reduction of his best starting times by shaving off 115 seconds.
And
96.67% reduction of his worst starting times by shaving off 145 seconds.

There is some other amazing gems about the brain in Dr David Eagleman's series on the human brain.

Stuff martial arts should know and inform their training methods.

Practicing the repeated kata allowed him to shave an incredible amount of time off the performance of complex body movement.

And also move it from conscious effort to unconscious effort.

Which has enormous value in a martial art setting. Especially if you hardwire defensive or offensive actions into one’s involuntary response.

Your body will react to the threat before your conscious mind will have time to consider options.

Now having said all that.... I will continue.

kata in the role of balence.
I have had the pleasure of training a handful of individuals, who had horrible balance. At least when they started.

week one.. after five classes (on friday) we light free sparred. The kicks they threw were off balance and i usually toppled them over with low blocks and leg picks.

they were started on kata from day one
class was warmups for 15 minutes, kata for 30, and makiwara or heavy bag for the remaining 15 minutes.

week three: they were able to hold their balance when kicking better. It was obvious that their supporting legs became stronger and they could fire kicks off faster. I still toppled them over. but not as often.

week nine: they weren't gassed out so fast, their kick speed dramatically increased and it was becoming harder to topple them. with just low blocks and leg picks. a well placed sidekick to the hips was one of the few ways i could knock em over.

week twelve: their blocking speed increased to the degree that they were able to start intercepting my kicks. low blocks and leg picks were now ineffective. started sweeps. ashibarrai. since it was in some of the katas... they understood subconsciously, that i was trying to sweep their lead foot.

After the first attempt which usually was successful.
My repeated attempts was met with weight transfer back to the rear leg and very quick arm bridging.

This was very improved balance.

after a year... all of these individuals had good to great balance. Especially since they started with almost none to speak of. I wasn't doing partner drills, just kata with these people. As an experiment.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yes, movements as a whole. Sure, people can land kicks used also in karate, or vertical punches found in wing Chun, etc and adapt that to actual fighting. You can also convert a model T with modern parts to do a buck twenty on the highway.

Movements as a whole... or the entire kata. If the later... kata doesn't work like that. You have been given a lot of video of live application of kata segments. Wab25 gave you the link
Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
and i gave you stuff in a post too.

Which in an of itself is a poor argument for the model T as a race car.

Which is a different argument. The old ways are effective. Your earlier post was to the effect that when paraphrased comes out as "forms are useless for developing fighting ability". What you literally said was: "How many forms you know/how well you can do them has nothing to do with fighting ability."

That doesn't mean they are bad or wrong.
The two biggest issues... 1. Most people dont understand kata... especially the people that are doing them. and 2... because they don't understand kata... they don't invest the time practicing them that is neccessary to benefit greatly from them.

Sure, useful stuff can be plucked from a lot of TMA systems, but the fact TMA guys get clobbered without adding a LOT of additional training 99/100 times does tell a tale.

Some just add groundfighting to their tma fighting base.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not necessarily...Ever have a bad day? Fight enough and you may well just plain get caught. It happens.

1 of the things I try to remind myself when I get over confident. "I can always lose." There is no way to eliminate the reality that someone is better than me, which means that someone can beat me, and I can lose.