Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by dvcochran, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    I am curious how other practitioners are taught.

    Often I see misunderstanding between the crescent and wheel kick. I am aware of two crescents; inside and outside. Often the outside is used as a spinning kick. Spinning or not the outside crescent strike is with the blade (outside) of the foot. I use the spinning crescent as a closer in kick always going to the outside of the body, over the shoulder to the ear or side of the face/jaw. From a fighting stance the reverse (back leg) crescent is a low percentage kick and it exposes your front side during the kick. However, if you are open stance to your opponent it can be effective. Front leg crescents are weak but can be effective blocking. Wheel kicks (always spinning) are great for the speedster. Very fast, very powerful, an accomplished kicker can hit the wheel faster than most people can throw a reverse kick. And can often kick through a front leg kick still being effective. Very good defensively as they create little opening when done correctly.
     
  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The "outside crescent kick" can also be used to escape your opponent's leg attack. When your opponent tries to

    - roundhouse kick below your knee,
    - hook your leg,
    - cut your leg,
    - sweep your leg,
    - ...

    you can use it to move your leg over his attacking leg and let his leg to kick into the thin air.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  3. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    The first issue is terminology. A Chang Hon Crescent kick is likely not what you are describing. For that system it sounds like the equivalent pf a Vertical kick with the outside edge of the foot which is called the "Foot Sword" . Chang Hon has no "Wheel Kick" I can only guess it is similar to the "Reverse Turning Kick which is usually performed with the back of the heel when the foot is not pointing - 90 degrees to the leg but can also be done with the bottom / ball of the foot if the foot is "Pointed" .

    Now to the point of how or what is effective. Again this will depend in part on the sparring rule set..

    However IMNSHO you should "Set Up" any rear leg kick with a lead hand or lead leg technique. As a rear leg counter the timing is part of the set up.
     
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    Mr. Weiss, I agree semantics make naming question foggy across styles sometimes. Bahl nahl I think is the same at Chang Hon, so are we in agreement it is a kick using the outside edge (blade) of the foot? Assuming we are, can you describe the technical components of how you do the kick when spinning? I often see it taught as a straight leg kick from beginning to end. I disagree with this concept. It is a vertical kick is the respect that the body is straight up. The knee of the spinning leg does bend raising it high to the chest. This is a defensive posture that also make it easier to get the required height. It can also make the opponent question where you are aiming the kick making it more difficult to block. So the body is straight up, the head is around eyes on the target, the hands are up by the face, especially the lead hand, the knee is bent high to the chest. This is how it can be a close in kick. The outside hip muscle (tensor fasciae latae) really comes into play. The body should already fully torqued (twisted) creating power to bring the leg/foot through the kick striking your target. I think of it as more of a right angle motion, not a circular motion (the leg not the spin). Balance after the kick is very important. I want it to be my choice whether I land my foot back where it started or step forward. How do you teach it?
     
  5. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    first question I have is "Spinning" rearward or forward. . For example. If you start with the right foot back and are kicking with the right foot , are you turning clockwise (Rearward) ? We also do the same kick turning forward / counter clockwise, initially a CCW turn and then foot would move from left to right.
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    Let's talk about a right leg back, back leg, clockwise kick for sake of argument. You kick the back counter-clockwise?
     
  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    I am trying go get a conversation started about mechanics. Terminology is important to get us on the same page which I think we are.
     
  8. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    You can do a right leg back outside blade of foot kick turning clockwise or counter clock wise. If you start turning counter clock wise the leg will initil trvel that way and then come across from your left to your right. I will address mechanics of CW / rearward turn in next post.
     
  9. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    I teach in different stages depending on experience / ability. CW Kick right leg bck

    Beginner. Lead leg pivot as far as possible with little rotation of anything else, , shoulders rotate placing kicking side hand behind back with forearm parallel to belt look at target, then kick with kicking side shoulder passing target before foot with shoulders nearly full facing as kick makes target. Kicking leg knee is slightly flexed and extends fully but not locked just before contact. .

    After above done fairly well, both hands are extended more to the side nd swung to facilitate rotation, pulling hands in to more of a guarding position as you turn this uses the "Conservation of angular" momentum like a spinning figure skater to increase speed of rotation.

    After above done well kicking foot starts with heel up and ball of foot on floor with knee slightly flexed and loaded. Instead of using just spin / weight shift and leg lift to get foot to target the foot pivots slightly sideways as the lead foot pivots. and pushes off the floor to facilitate it's travel.

    It is note that hand positions for above are for learning / training and are modified to guard position for sparring.
     
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  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    In American Karate we throw a wheel kick like this. Is this the wheel kick being discussed?

     
  11. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    That is why I tried to nail down how the Op defined the term. Joe Rogan is using the back of the heel. The OP explains that they are using the outside edge (Small toe side) of the foot . Joe Rogan has the foot nearly horizontal at impact. The kick referred to by the OP has the foot vertical at impact. The foot position also requires different degrees of shoulder / hip rotation for a powerful kick.
     
  12. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    Yes, the kick to Bob (wavemaster) is spot on. Really strong. Notice how the leg is not straight from start to finish. For me, that is where I get a lot of the power. It also helps with balance.
     
  13. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Thank you, gentlemen.

    Good kicking is such a wonderful thing. An absolute joy to be honest. To me, if you're really good at it tactically, it's more fun than anything else in fighting. If you ain't there yet, or don't care to be, that's okay, too, it probably doesn't mean as much. Nor does it matter.
     
  14. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    For clarification, the Rogan video shows the "perfect" WHEEL kick in my opinion. I have search for cresent kick videos so I am wondering what the input is for explaining the difference between the two. How/when do you use each kick?
     
  15. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    The mechanics I described for the "Reverse Vertical Kick" which uses the outside Blade of the foot vs the one Rogan shows using the back of the heel (Chang Hon reverse turning kick except for offset of Chang Hon usual target) , are pretty much the same with regard to how the spin is performed. Major difference is that the shoulder goes slightly past the target before the kick lands with the foot horizontal or toes slightly lower than heel versus outside edge / footsword vertical kick having shoulder go way past the target to nearly full facing and foot being vertical.
     
  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I'd like to discuss this in depth, but it will have to be later, I'm heading out for a twelve hour shift. Then the Holiday, yada, yada. But I'd like to give you my thoughts.
     
  17. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Rogan's "Rough on the Knee / Stiff legged" comment at :55 is a common issue. IMO the leg is nearly straight but not locked at impact. Kaving a 5 degree or so bend allows the impact to be absorbed by muscles, ligaments and tendons as opposed to forcing the joint past it's normal range.

    Here is a video I did for the surgeon who replaced my hip. At 2:55 I was doing some reverse Vertical Kicks and at 3:14 some reveres spinning heel kicks.
     
  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Yellow Belt

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    Very nice. Are you saying you did the video the same day of surgery? You are a tough nut. We teach inside/outside crescent kicks differently. To have more force and application, they are squared off on the latter stages of the kick. The foot comes up knee high to the chest, then the kick is linear, going straight across the target (head) instead of glancing over in the traditional circular motion. Especially effective with the outside crescent, spinning or not as it makes it harder to tell where the kick is going.
    I hope your rehab goes very although it doesn't appear you will need much.
     
  19. KabutoKouji

    KabutoKouji Green Belt

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    is it like a spinning hooking kick but not as chambered?
     
  20. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    No, this was about a year post op. I did not have he minimally invasive type
     

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