Boys ages 14, 16 charged with gang-raping woman, torturing preteen

[MJS]

I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.

These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?

But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.

Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.

I just don't know.

I'd have to say yes, its the upbringing. We, as a society, can only help people so much. If they choose not to correct themselves or turn their life around, we can't control that.

You're right though...going by the reaction of one of the neighbors, and her comment, these people won't give this a second thought. I really hope these people who did this get sent away for a long time.

 

[grydth]

I do not pretend to have all the answers... but as a master practitioner of the darkest art, I can at least offer you some ideas:

Do NOT stop watching the news. Your feelings of revulsion are what differentiate you from the monsters who perpetrate these crimes, and from the sheeple who've come to accept such predations as routine, almost inevitable... The stupidest proverb I have ever heard is, "What you don't know can't hurt you" - Folks, what you don't know is often what kills you. Ignorance = increased vulnerability. As with ordinary people, criminals tend to be creatures who copy and who fall into habits. The more you know of these, the more precautions you can take.

Yes, we have had monsters like these through history. I once found an ancient book on legal cases from the late 1700's to about 1840. To my surprise, the crimes were just as vicious. The difference was that those societies quickly disposed on the monster via execution, exile, army or penitentiary. What is new is societal concern... for the rights and welfare of the murderers and maimers. Whether this represents social progress, or a misguided acceptance of the Philosophy of Extinction, I leave to each of you for consideration.

Totalitarian government is not the answer. You are not safer by all citizens having no rights. < BUT - are we safer in granting so many rights to the killers?> The regimes cited above were merely those where the government replaced the individual as the chief perpetrator of violent crimes. In Stalin's Russia, one was not safe... not ever. As many historians have detailed, violent individual crime continued to flourish in Stalin's Paradise, as did mass killings by the NKVD and Red Army.

A personal icon for me in fighting back is one each Mr Goldman... the father of the guy OJ killed. He has been unflinching for years in doing everything legal in pursuit of the killer, most recently acquiring the rights to publish "If I Did It" under the new title of "Confessions of a Double Murderer". Other victims fight back in the legislature - witness Jenna's Law in NY curbing parole of violent felons... it was pushed by murder victim Jenna's family. Still others appear at parole hearings, give talks, put the heat at election time on those who let killers free to murder again.

Don't turn away. Learn and fight back.

 

[MJS]

I do not pretend to have all the answers... but as a master practitioner of the darkest art, I can at least offer you some ideas:

Do NOT stop watching the news. Your feelings of revulsion are what differentiate you from the monsters who perpetrate these crimes, and from the sheeple who've come to accept such predations as routine, almost inevitable... The stupidest proverb I have ever heard is, "What you don't know can't hurt you" - Folks, what you don't know is often what kills you. Ignorance = increased vulnerability. As with ordinary people, criminals tend to be creatures who copy and who fall into habits. The more you know of these, the more precautions you can take.

Yes, we have had monsters like these through history. I once found an ancient book on legal cases from the late 1700's to about 1840. To my surprise, the crimes were just as vicious. The difference was that those societies quickly disposed on the monster via execution, exile, army or penitentiary. What is new is societal concern... for the rights and welfare of the murderers and maimers. Whether this represents social progress, or a misguided acceptance of the Philosophy of Extinction, I leave to each of you for consideration.

Totalitarian government is not the answer. You are not safer by all citizens having no rights. < BUT - are we safer in granting so many rights to the killers?> The regimes cited above were merely those where the government replaced the individual as the chief perpetrator of violent crimes. In Stalin's Russia, one was not safe... not ever. As many historians have detailed, violent individual crime continued to flourish in Stalin's Paradise, as did mass killings by the NKVD and Red Army.

A personal icon for me in fighting back is one each Mr Goldman... the father of the guy OJ killed. He has been unflinching for years in doing everything legal in pursuit of the killer, most recently acquiring the rights to publish "If I Did It" under the new title of "Confessions of a Double Murderer". Other victims fight back in the legislature - witness Jenna's Law in NY curbing parole of violent felons... it was pushed by murder victim Jenna's family. Still others appear at parole hearings, give talks, put the heat at election time on those who let killers free to murder again.

Don't turn away. Learn and fight back.

The bold emphasis is mine. I dont disagree with what you said. Regarding the bold part...well, that was before the groups such as AI and the others who are the watchdogs of how the prisoners get treated, got involved. Maybe groups like that were around back then, I dont know, but IMO, there is no helping the people who did this to that mother and her son.

 

[Steel Tiger]

The bold emphasis is mine. I dont disagree with what you said. Regarding the bold part...well, that was before the groups such as AI and the others who are the watchdogs of how the prisoners get treated, got involved. Maybe groups like that were around back then, I dont know, but IMO, there is no helping the people who did this to that mother and her son.

This caught my attention. I think you are very right in this. There is no helping them because I don't think they can understand that what they have done is so bad. They might understand they have committed a crime, they might even have gone into the situation with the specific intent of committing a crime, but I doubt they can see that what they did is any worse than stealing a candybar from a convenience store. That important understanding is missing from their morality.

 

[MJS]

This caught my attention. I think you are very right in this. There is no helping them because I don't think they can understand that what they have done is so bad. They might understand they have committed a crime, they might even have gone into the situation with the specific intent of committing a crime, but I doubt they can see that what they did is any worse than stealing a candybar from a convenience store. That important understanding is missing from their morality.

Thanks, and you brought up a good point as well. You're right, its unlikely that they comprehend the serious nature of this. Usually the mention of an alternative to jail is suggested, but due to the graphic nature of this incident, I can't see anything but jail. If it was just a candybar, sure. But rape, a forceable armed home invasion as well as assaulting these people...sorry, but jail is what they need..for a very long time.

 

[MA-Caver]

These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?

Steel, they are animals in every sense of the word. Mike Tyson was an animal and he proved it by beating on Robin Givens and biting Evander Hollyfield's ear off and just being one mean s.o.b. Human animals with no sense of remorse or fore or even afterthought of what they've done. It was just something to do to vent out some rage, sexual frustration (they're kids...raging hormones), and felt they could get away with it because they were kids. But even then, they just didn't give a damn. It was just something to do. To me that makes them animals. Savage, brutal, predatory animals. They've (in my eyes) have lost their rights to be human beings. Same with the Nazi's of the 40's and their prison camps, the Japanese in Nanking, Saddam's personal guards, and so on. Human beings don't behave in this fashion.

But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.

Is society really to blame? Probably but only a small portion of the blame goes to us (society). Again, the large portion of the blame rests with the parents or primary care-takers of these kids. Raised seemingly without morals, values and an appreciation of life and the sanctity thereof the kids sought out gangs to have that sense of belonging, of family. Sadly losing their humanity along the way. I've known very poor families and known very poor families who have taught their children to be good people, by not taking their frustrations out on their spouses (in front of the kids) or on their own children. Who taught their kids the value of a good education, of working hard and feeling honor in that they're doing everything they can to elevate themselves out. That the road is long and hard but possible. I've seen this and seen how good the kids are as a result. Is society responsible for them? No, the parents have taught their kids how to make choices, teaching them to make bad or good choices... lies with them.

Were the actions of these villains the product of their upbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.
I just don't know.

How are we to blame for a father's or a mother's inability to find a steady job. To find a steady GOOD paying job? Jesus Christ is quoted as saying "... the poor will be with you always..." he knew that. Throughout the course of history we've seen it and we deep down inside know it. Ceicei pointed out (in another thread) that there are some people who refuse to elevate themselves out of their poverty. It's a psychological comfort zone for them. It's a self-esteem thing. Some of them feel they deserve nothing more than what they have. Though they dream of someday winning a lottery or sweepstakes or a previously unknown rich relative has died and will leave them everything to them. Those are the optimistic (hopeful) poor.
You've also got the pessimistic (hopeless) poor. The ones who have nothing but a constant litany at the (sparse) dinner table of hate, prejudice, bitterness and anger at the boss, the co-worker, the welfare case worker, the cops, and just about anyone else who "keeps them down". Heavy alcohol use (not necessarily alcoholism though it is usually but again not always the cause) the great un-inhibitor, the great exaggerator of tales and emotions is a great symptom of these negative monologues that these children hear on a daily basis at home. Then they may hear about what a ***** their mother is, how lazy and what a terrible cook and see Dad yelling and bitching at their mom daily, sometimes or all the time hitting her and yes, raping her (not necessarily in front of the kids but I've heard horror stories of it happening). These and countless of other things they see on a daily basis.
So what do these kids do? What examples are they learning. They get together with their friends who are usually from the same type of homes and hear the same type of stories. This must be what life is like. Never mind what they see on TV. That's fantasy with the Cosby family or Fresh Prince of Bel Aire and so on. Not real, not what it's really like. These kids know better.

So is society to blame? Maybe in part. Not creating outlets for these kids. Not creating places for these kids to go (escape to) and be exposed to role models that'll hopefully set them straight. Sure, Big Brothers and Big Sisters and the Scouts and Boys Club of America and so on... places where sometimes a predator lurks waiting for the right victim to come along... and these kids KNOW that. So why hang out there and take the chance of getting molested? They're frustrated, they want things their parents can't afford them. Selling drugs, shoplifting and the related thrills that go with them (even if they're caught). The easy money to be made, busting in houses and going to the fence/pawn-shops. Learning all types of criminal activity to escape the misery of what lies beyond the door at home, which is a crap shoot. Is Dad drunk today? Did mom get fired and is on one? Are they fighting? Did I get caught doing something I shouldn't have done and they're waiting for me to come home so they can bust my ***? A 1000 and one things which are all fearful unknowns. It toughens them up, it makes them resentful, mean, bitter and little by little their own humanity that they were born with is eroded to almost nothing.

So is society to blame for it? In some parts yes.

(off soap box)

 

[MA-Caver]

Not getting back ON the soap box but adding some after thoughts here. I got done watching a Stone Phillips interview with Jeffery Dahmler and his parents (shortly before he was killed in prison). While Dahmler, to me represents the utmost extreme of criminal cruelty to another human being and these kids are probably not too far down the scale from him, there were points in the interview(s) made that had me recollect some things I learned when I was working with convicted sex offenders during their treatments.
For Dahmler it was primarily a control issue (which lead to sexual gratification). His parents admitted to having volatile arguments and he talked about the feeling (as a child) of the lack of control (over his environment and the people in it) he felt at the time. Thusly as an adult he was seeking to have that sense of power-control over someone (anyone).
These kids that committed this horror I'd dare say were probably and most likely on a subconscious level were seeking that same type of control which ultimately lead to sexual acts/perversions which was just an expression of the release of the tensions (however temporary) they were experiencing in their day to day lives. An acting out phase of a vicious cycle that goes on in their lives. No, not trying to excuse them or trying to do anything except perhaps find an answer to understanding.
Same goes with the perps who sexually abused children. It's an acting out of a deep cycle in their minds/lives that they've become accustomed to or are seeking for the first time.
Not everyone is going to act out their frustrations and other negative feelings and low self-esteem in the same way. Some will just eat continually to the point of gross obesity, others will be those compulsive gamblers, alcoholics, addicts, workaholics, OCD's and so on. Some become fantastic social workers, doctors, LEO's, scientists, authors, musicians, artists and so forth. Some become the worse criminals we've ever heard/read about.
Just a thought/theory as to the WHY of this terrible crime.

 

[grydth]

Even amongst a single criminal band, there can be a wide diversity of evil causes and motivations. Some are quite incapable of understanding right and wrong.... others revel in the wrong... still others are in it just for the loot - or just to gain the approval of the primary wrongdoer... or because they have nothing else to do at the moment...or...

I once encountered a serial killer whose method was to stab women to death... while he was raping them. When you are done trying to fathom this monster, try and figure this out - he had a helper. What made that guy tick?

We do need to study these villains, if nothing else to protect ourselves from them... and possibly eliminate some of the circumstances that produce them. But we should never lose sight of one thing - to them we are mice, to be savagely played with, and then torn apart and eaten.

 

[morph4me]

I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.

But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment. These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.

I appreciate that it's very easy to get 'derailed' with an approach like this and plunge into despotism but in cases where it is clear who the culprits are and the crimes are so heinous I'm shocked to hear myself say it but I'd be first in line to sign for the death penalty. Remove these people-shaped aberrations permanently so that they can perpertrate no further similar offences.

The death penalty may not act as a deterrent, but it does assure that these particular "people shaped aberrations" won't do it again, but it should be done slowly and painfully. In this case cruel and unusual punishment fits the crime and should be liberally applied.:angry:

 

[morph4me]

I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.

These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?

But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.

Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.

I just don't know.

Society failed them?? Somehow society shares responsibilty for this?? I don't think so. Society is made up of individuals who make choices to live within the rules of that society or not. Please don't mitigate the responsiblilty of these scumbags by blaming society for their actions in any way, shape or form.

 

[CoryKS]

Unfortunately, they're too young to receive the death penalty that they so richly deserve. I'll paraphrase a popular Marine saying: "Only God can judge these boys for their actions. Our job is to arrange the meeting."

 

[Steel Tiger]

Society failed them?? Somehow society shares responsibilty for this?? I don't think so. Society is made up of individuals who make choices to live within the rules of that society or not. Please don't mitigate the responsiblilty of these scumbags by blaming society for their actions in any way, shape or form.

I was not saying that society failed them, I was saying that it has failed all of us in that these creatures have such a disturbing moral disposition. Yes, a person may choose to live within the rules of society or not, and in that they are choosing between right and wrong in a broad sense. The perpetrators of this act do not seem to have any idea just how bad it was.

I have no sympathy for these lowlives, and I would not seek to mitigate or justify what they have done. But I think when we have crimes of this nature presented to us we need to ask ourselves why are there people who could do this? Not for their benefits, but for our own.

 

[morph4me]

I was not saying that society failed them, I was saying that it has failed all of us in that these creatures have such a disturbing moral disposition. Yes, a person may choose to live within the rules of society or not, and in that they are choosing between right and wrong in a broad sense. The perpetrators of this act do not seem to have any idea just how bad it was.

I have no sympathy for these lowlives, and I would not seek to mitigate or justify what they have done. But I think when we have crimes of this nature presented to us we need to ask ourselves why are there people who could do this? Not for their benefits, but for our own.

I misunderstood, I apologize, that's what I get for replying when I'm upset at a story and before I have my coffee :asian:

 

[Steel Tiger]

I misunderstood, I apologize, that's what I get for replying when I'm upset at a story and before I have my coffee :asian:

No problem.

I think you have a good point. I am just waiting for the bleeding hearts to start with the justifications and rationalisations.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Since when do you have to wait? :barf:

 

[grydth]

Okay, for discussion sake let's put the so called bleeding hearts' position to the curb... and their socialist notions of American collective responsibility for crimes both domestic and foreign... those USA haters who justify anything from serial rapists to terrorist cannibals by bleating about what we must have done to make them hate us so much.....What's lost by focusing on them?

What we risk losing is an intelligent and dispassionate look at what may cause or aggravate some crimes. If only in self defense, we should explore that.

For example, one thing I noted were that the large majority of criminals I encountered came from broken homes. I am not blaming "society"; rather what I am saying is that certain individual 'parents', by not doing their jobs, are making the risk of criminal behavior increase.

Another risk factor is abuse in the home or from 'family'... watch the behavior of so called 'parents' towards children in any major shopping area. What chance at life, what outlook towards themselves and others, will these children have?

If we found more ways of mentoring troubled kids, and fewer ways of making excuses for the ones who go wrong, just maybe the country would be safer. The evil and the answer isn't 'society'... it is will responsible individuals (like you sensei, like you teachers) continue to step up?

 

[MJS]

Okay, for discussion sake let's put the so called bleeding hearts' position to the curb... and their socialist notions of American collective responsibility for crimes both domestic and foreign... those USA haters who justify anything from serial rapists to terrorist cannibals by bleating about what we must have done to make them hate us so much.....What's lost by focusing on them?

What we risk losing is an intelligent and dispassionate look at what may cause or aggravate some crimes. If only in self defense, we should explore that.

For example, one thing I noted were that the large majority of criminals I encountered came from broken homes. I am not blaming "society"; rather what I am saying is that certain individual 'parents', by not doing their jobs, are making the risk of criminal behavior increase.

Another risk factor is abuse in the home or from 'family'... watch the behavior of so called 'parents' towards children in any major shopping area. What chance at life, what outlook towards themselves and others, will these children have?

If we found more ways of mentoring troubled kids, and fewer ways of making excuses for the ones who go wrong, just maybe the country would be safer. The evil and the answer isn't 'society'... it is will responsible individuals (like you sensei, like you teachers) continue to step up?

My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.

 

[terryl965]

My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.

Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.

 

[grydth]

Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.

I hope I was clear that violent criminals should be held fully accountable for their actions - be that prison or death.

However, without excusing those that do go wrong via a veneer of "society being to blame", I also believe we have responsibility as individual citizens to help troubled and disadvantaged people from ever turning down that evil and violent road. We should study the factors that cause, activate, encourage crime.... and do what we can to end them.

Now, sometimes there may not be much anyone can do.... I think some individuals are simply monstrously evil by nature.... and will never change. All that can be done is to isolate or execute.

 

[terryl965]

I hope I was clear that violent criminals should be held fully accountable for their actions - be that prison or death.

However, without excusing those that do go wrong via a veneer of "society being to blame", I also believe we have responsibility as individual citizens to help troubled and disadvantaged people from ever turning down that evil and violent road. We should study the factors that cause, activate, encourage crime.... and do what we can to end them.

Now, sometimes there may not be much anyone can do.... I think some individuals are simply monstrously evil by nature.... and will never change. All that can be done is to isolate or execute.

I do understand your point and can agree in some way but people there ages no better and differently knows right from wrong.