Boys ages 14, 16 charged with gang-raping woman, torturing preteen

[Ceicei]

Almost makes one want to never pick up the news again... :flammad: Makes me so sick to my stomach! :barf:

It seems people have become more and more cold and violent. Can anything be done to turn the tide or is it too late? It becomes even more important for me to stress the "self defense". I want to run out there and tell people to wake up!

This was started by a simple beginning to this tragedy:

According to the police report, a man knocked on the woman’s door at about 9 p.m. and told her he had a flat tire. The mother and son, whom police have not identified, went outside and were ambushed by a group of gun-wielding suspects.

And led to this:

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Two teenagers were accused of gang-raping a woman and forcing her 12-year-old son to join in the attack, then beating him and pouring cleaning solution into his eyes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19636099/

 

[MA-Caver]

My God! :disgust::disgust::disgust:

 

[Darksoul]

-Society is indeed in need of waking up. Thats freaking unnaceptable. Those punks need to be punished severely. Unfortunately I don't have the faith in the system to see justice done properly or to see it really have an impact for people to change. Wow.

A--->

 

[MJS]

There are some very sick people in this world. Every one of those scum bags needs to be locked up. I know there have been many threads about prison, treatment, etc., but IMHO, these people are beyond help! They all need to be locked up for many years. Makes one wonder what their parents are like.

 

[Sukerkin]

First I want to preface this with the hope that everyone here knows that normally I take a very even-handed view of topics, no matter how emotive they may be.

That said, I get extra-ordinarily right wing when I hear things like this - I suspect it's the dark side of my 'do the right thing regardless of cost' nature.

I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.

But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment. These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.

I appreciate that it's very easy to get 'derailed' with an approach like this and plunge into despotism but in cases where it is clear who the culprits are and the crimes are so heinous I'm shocked to hear myself say it but I'd be first in line to sign for the death penalty. Remove these people-shaped aberrations permanently so that they can perpertrate no further similar offences.

 

[arnisador]

I don't know what to say.

 

[MA-Caver]

Well the article said that there were 10 of them... only two got charged. Probably because they got caught... what about the other 8. Two may end up in prison for a long time but the other 8 are still "out there", free to do what comes to their mind... again.
That is the scary part. All of these guys need to be taken care of.

Then once again the mother and the son will have to undergo long periods of treatment and counseling. Especially the boy. Having to "rape" his own mother or lose his life must've been a terrible choice for one his age. An older teen probably would've done the noble thing and lost his life defending his mother but the threat could have included his mother as well... "...first we'll kill you, then your mom!" Of course the perps couldn't have begun to imagine (or even care) that they were in effect killing the mother anyway with their vile acts.
Then having adding the torture of burning his eyes with various chemicals, how heart-wrenching it must've been for the mother to hear her son's screams. My prayers to them both.

No, these kids (and that's what makes this story all the more horrible) need to be locked away in a deep dark place ... forever. IMO they're beyond (human) redemption. Not beyond forgiveness but definitely beyond redemption. Nothing, no possible argument to the contrary can convince me that these animals may "grow-out" of it and become remorseful and change to be productive members of society. I just can't see it.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.

It prevents the executed from committing crimes and since I do believe in the 10/90 principle (10% of the people are committing 90% of the crime) I think the death penalty is just what the Dr. ordered.

 

[qi-tah]

Regarding the perpetrators of this terrible crime... may they never be able to sleep again. May the cries of their victims and the horror of what they have done haunt them for the rest of their days.

I really hope the mother and her son can recover from this ordeal.

 

[MA-Caver]

Regarding the perpetrators of this terrible crime... may they never be able to sleep again. May the cries of their victims and the horror of what they have done haunt them for the rest of their days.

No, that's what makes these guys (and thousands more like them) animals, they're able to sleep and soundly. Recall that one of them denies participation. You can bet that he had a smug smile on his face while saying: "I didn't do it."

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just absolutely disgusting.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm with Suke.

There comes a point--and there can be no doubt, by this point, that these diseased lifeforms are beyond it--where a person just is not fixable.

You don't "rehabilitate" diseased lifeforms like this.

You ventilate them.


But you know they won't do it.

 

[Mr. E]

But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment. These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.

Like Andy, I am with you on this point.

The thing that makes me want to puke is the fact that neither of these kids will do much time behind bars. IIRC, the punishments they get as 14-16 year olds are pretty tame. They both will be out about the time they can legally drink. The chances of a 14 year old being tried as an adult in a group action is pretty slim. I am sure his lawyer will try to say that he was forced into it by the others. Then it is up to the state to prove that he did things of his own free will.

And if these guys are doing things like this at this age, imagine the types of things they will be doing once they get out.

And I doubt there is a chance they will give up the others involved in the crime. I am sure that when they go up for parole they will cry and say they are sorry. I hope that the board members will ask them to prove their remorse by giving the names of the others. But I fear the board will not even do that, and the kids will be out soon anyways.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know what to say.

I do. This sort of thing happens and has been happening all the time. It is only now that attention is payed on a global scale. Things are not worse.
Sean

 

[Mr. E]

I do. This sort of thing happens and has been happening all the time. It is only now that attention is payed on a global scale. Things are not worse.

I have to disagree.

History seems to bounce back and forth. Societies seem to get tolerant of things and let them slide to a point where things are about to collapse. In desperation they turn to strong leaders that do some pretty nasty things, but do allow the common folk to walk the streets safely. People get complacent about the safety and start tearing down the power of the tyrants and the process starts all over again.

And it seems to me that in animals as well as battles, evolution and change are required. Those that try to fight battles under the old rules get eaten by those that have looked at the old rules and found flaws in them.

I think it is safe to say that we are in a battle with crime. The rules that society is playing by is that 14 year olds are not responsible for their own actions and can't be judged or punished as harshly as those that are older. While we cling to the old rules, the criminal gangs have evolved and are now training their youngest members to commit and take the blame for the worst crimes. In the past, children as young as these have commited vicious crimes. The difference is that now they are being trained from a young age by gangs to be animals because they will not be judged as harshly. I suspect that this type of crime was some sort of training for the younger members of a gang to get them to do what the group says and get them used to some pretty nasty things.

If we were to take these two animals out and put them down like the mad dogs, useless to society, that they are there might be a big change in the way crime is battled. No longer would youngesters be indoctrinated from a young age at being able to kill and worse without fear of real trouble.

But that will not happen. We will cling to the old rules until things are so bad that we have no choice but to bring in someone that will rule with an iron fist or face collapse. Street gangs rule some parts of major cities just like the guerillas in war zones. The police can't get people to testify against them and use the law because the gangs know the rules and how to get around them- intimidating witnesses and killing those that oppose them with kids that will be released in a few years.

It is depressing. I do not see how to combat it under the rules we have now. And people do not want to face the uncetainty of even talking about changing the rules. We can't even talk about real strategies of stopping this type of thing, much less stop it.

 

[MA-Caver]

But that will not happen. We will cling to the old rules until things are so bad that we have no choice but to bring in someone that will rule with an iron fist or face collapse.

Well, you're basically talking about a Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Saddam, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (aka Shah of Iran), Idi Amin, and so forth... the crime in these despots' countries were relatively low due to the severe and final punishments and terrible prison conditions imposed by these leaders.
Better the devil you know (criminals) than some iron-fisted ruler. Because their laws will be horribly strict and meted out to everyone, and I don't want to be sent to some Minnesotan or Montana Gulag just for spitting on the sidewalk.

Street gangs rule some parts of major cities just like the guerillas in war zones. The police can't get people to testify against them and use the law because the gangs know the rules and how to get around them- intimidating witnesses and killing those that oppose them with kids that will be released in a few years.

This type of societial bullying is basically the same that was held by the organized crime lords of Chicago and New York during the prohibition years and so on. While (modern day) gangstas are fearsome they shouldn't be feared. Ok respected for the violence that they can commit against someone but not feared. Letting someone have fear over you is letting them control you, your thoughts and your actions (see above statements about Iron Fisted Rulers). There is a way to deal with these young hoodlums, it may be harsh but eventually society will stand up and tell the law-makers to crack-down on these youthful offenders. We as a society (also British society) have the power to have the laws that we want to have. We have to band together to tell those gits and idiots on the hill to write them so that we, the average citizens will feel safer but safer on OUR terms. It can be done.

It is depressing. I do not see how to combat it under the rules we have now. And people do not want to face the uncertainty of even talking about changing the rules. We can't even talk about real strategies of stopping this type of thing, much less stop it.

Talking about strategies now is a good way to have it all worked out and having a good plan to give to law-makers to work with. Better to do it all now than to find someone who'll stand up and say... :"Ok, we're going to crack down on these hoodlums ... so give us a few years to do the studies and planning" ... We can do this and we (again) as a society can tell them to do it THIS or THAT way. We've enough intelligent and knowledgeable people outside politics that can come up with a workable, viable solution. All those guys on the hill have to do is simply pass it into law.

 

[Mr. E]

There is a way to deal with these young hoodlums, it may be harsh but eventually society will stand up and tell the law-makers to crack-down on these youthful offenders. We as a society (also British society) have the power to have the laws that we want to have. We have to band together to tell those gits and idiots on the hill to write them so that we, the average citizens will feel safer but safer on OUR terms. It can be done.

The madness of a crowd scares me more than some politicians. Some of the worst dictators were first elected into office by the same populace you say can be the solution.

As I see it, there are some real barriars against anybody doing something to stop the descent into chaos. There is the constitution for one. Everyone has a right to face their accusers in a court of law under the US constitution. Well, if there are other gang members who are not in jail willing to kill those that would testify, how many people are going to stand up to them? Do you want to do away with that right? If we even talk about it we risk a whole bunch of people screaming about how we will be a dictatorship.

And lets look at this case. I suspect strongly that it was some sort of training for a gang. The details are scarce, but I get that feel. It is the perfect way to insure loyalty and obidience to the group. After taking part in this type of thing, there will be few guys willing to leave and go to the police because they are guilty. If there are any police plants trying to infiltrate and get info on the gang, they will be stopped at this point. They can't go through with the event and if they stop it, the gang members will get off with a light sentence for an attempted rape- probably pled down and the juveniles will get even lighter sentances.

Can you give me a concrete way we as the people can pass laws and make our government combat these types of things?

Anything we try to prevent this type of thing will probably step on some toes in terms of civil rights. If we take the kids out and shoot them, there will be a great amount of screaming from all the "civilized" countries as well as from inside the US about killing kids. Even if you locked them up for life there will be screaming about overly- harsh punishments. But if you don't really treat these types of animals harshly, then the pattern of gangs training and using their youngest members will continue. Why should they stop if something proves to work?

We could demand that 14 year olds or younger found to have engaged in this type of thing be locked up for life. It will not work. Too many people will oppose it as being draconian or maybe even racist. Stories of the few kids that say they are repentent will make good press and cause people to go lax- ignoring the many more who are just damaged for life like these kids are.

People will continue to deny that there is a problem rather than risk change in what they know. Your words seem to confirm that. The crowd acts like a herd, either not moving or stampeding in terror.

We will not do anything until things are so bad that no one can deny it. By that time it will be too late for anything but the most drastic of measures.

 

[MJS]

Came across another article on this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19698132/

 

[Sukerkin]

It just goes from bad to worse (or in this case from horrific to nightmarish).

 

[Steel Tiger]

I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.

These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?

But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.

Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.

I just don't know.