Boxing vs. Systema punches

Discussion in 'Russian Martial Arts' started by Zitterbacke, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. Zitterbacke

    Zitterbacke Guest

    What do you think are the differences between the two ways of punching in Western Boxing and Systema?
    Of course, I do have my opinion but I would highly appreciate to hear some of you (perhaps having experience in both MAs) ;)


    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Furtry

    Furtry Green Belt

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    I have experience in both. The two are nothing alike. One is effective the other is mechanical. Guess which one :shrug:
     
  3. Zitterbacke

    Zitterbacke Guest

    What exactly do you mean by mechanical? That it is done without relaxation?
    Could one box a boxer with Systema punches (taking into account the gloves)?
     
  4. Furtry

    Furtry Green Belt

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    It took me 6 month to develop power using boxing mechanics of throwing a punch. It took me 6 attempts to throw a punch, such as a hook, with more power when I was shown in a Systema class. In boxing there is a right way and a wrong way to throw punches. While Systema advocates that it only needs to feel natural.
    Meanwhile the best boxer ever, Roy Jones Jr., throws shoots that resemble what Systema teaches.

    What is your fascination with using Systema for sport? Yes Systema will make you a better sport fighter, but it will not be Systema because of the rules.

    First thing Systema showed me against a jab was to put the elbow joint in the way. Bare knuckles would be broken, and have been broken. Open palm strikes are not allowed in boxing, in fact the UFC also said no. The hardest shoot I throw is a whip strike using wave motion, contacts with an open palm. Know why?... so you don't break your fist. And if your fist is broken you can still use the whip strike.
     
  5. Are systema punches anything like JKD punches?
     
  6. jellyman

    jellyman Green Belt

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    Hmmm... Jun Fan or concepts? If concepts, whose concepts? :)

    As for Jun Fan...

    There is a (sort of) straight punch called a tichok, but nothing like the reliance on straight line a la wing chun (we also tend to obscure the centreline through footwork/movement).
     
  7. NYCRonin

    NYCRonin Purple Belt

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    I have experience in both JKD (Jun Fan/original and concepts) and Systema punching styles -- the only similarity is that they both use a fist as the contact point. Zero relationship in force generation methodology. Many differences -- straight line punching vs. circular strikes...reliance on high speed contractile strength vs. relaxed whipping strikes...actually enough differences to go on for pages.

    Sum it up as above -- the only real similarlity is that both hit with the fist.

    (I also believe that Lee would have found the Systema methodology very interesting -- though it might not have been his 'cup of tea'.)
     
  8. Zitterbacke

    Zitterbacke Guest

    Well, I'm a boxer myself and from what I know punching in Systema and Boxing is alike to some extent.
    As it was partly stated, a good boxer will try to throw his fists meaning that he will give them an impulse but won't use any strength afterwards since it would slow down the movement. He will though use strength to get the fist/arm back whereas a systemaist will not.

    What differs here is the trajectory intended to strike the target.
    A boxer mostly goes the straight way. A systemaist does not as not to absorb the impulse that comes back after hitting the opponent and therefore prefers elliptical moves.
    Additionally it is more important for a systemaist to know how to use the right angle of fist and arm because there is no supporting bandage nor glove that prevents the wrist from getting hurt. Remember Tyson who broke his wrist in a pub fight?
    Meanwhile I wouldn't overestimate the risk of breaking your fists. They will accommodate to impacts simply due to pressups in Systema.
     
  9. jellyman

    jellyman Green Belt

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    Not that there's anything wrong with open hand either - it's all about the right tools for the job - but we are talking about punches specifically here.

    Not really sure if this is a striker's thing or just a particular guy or two I've sparred with, but there seems to be a tendency to cant the weight forward in people training for strike-only sports, which can leave you vulnerable to offbalancing/takedown/throw.

    Having read some texts on bare-knuckle boxing, where in fact takedowns were allowed, I have noticed some commonalities in advice - minimize tension, keep upright. Using the shoulders for defense is also advocated in both.

    Having only boxed amateur, I can't say whether this holds true for the pros, but in systema I've been trained for hitting with all parts if the fist, whereas in boxing it was knuckles only.

    Also, I know from speaking to others that even modern boxing varies a great deal by region. A friend from Uzbekistan (who also does systema with me) used to box there, and he says in the eastern republics, hooks and uppercuts are used much more than you see in most fighters in North America. He also showed me a hip-toss disguised as a punch (holdover from bareknuckle days?).
     
  10. jellyman

    jellyman Green Belt

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    All that said, if you look at the Strikes video, one difference you will see is training methodology. Less reliance on bags as opposed to people, by which I mean you learn the strikes by working with people rather than a bag.

    And that any-side-of the fist thing can mae a difference in the mechanics of a punch. A hook that lands with the back of the fist arrives on a bit of a different trajectory, especiially if it swivels through the elbow.

    And then there's trinity strikes which I've never seen in any boxing match, most probably because a trinity strike usually involves an elbow somewhere, which are 'illegal' in boxing. I sometimes find it hard to separate use of elbows from use of hands.
     
  11. Jackal

    Jackal Orange Belt

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    That’s been the main difference that I’ve experienced between Boxing and Systema – In Boxing, I was taught to throw the hands. Meaning, after a few inches of travel, I was no longer responsible for them. The importance was in the generation of power by the body to accelerate the “throw”. In Systema, I was taught to place strikes and be responsible for every inch of travel. The stress was on the importance of landing, where the strike actually takes place. A Boxer’s training emphasizes work before the contact; In Systema, much of the work involved in a strike takes place during and after initial contact.

    Boxing was fun, but it eventually wreaked havoc on my joints. Using Systema’s methods, my strikes are more accurate, the effect is much greater, and I no longer feel the shock of impact coming back to me.

    Then again, those are my experiences. Everyone's milage varies.
     

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