Boxing Vs. Ma-ists

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Yeah, in his school, but aren't you also talking out of your school's experience? My experience in Korea was that they DID know how to defend, that's what we trained for. My experience in some dojos in the US weren't all that great. I now teach (not at a dojo) and I think my pupils know how to defend themselves. I have a few relatives, some who are trained (maybe better than I am) and some who are not who I ask to spar with the other adults and the kids. It is unexpected as they do fight differently. Sometimes, I even get in there myself and do something that they wouldn't expect. Of course, nobody kills each other, but pain is inseperable IMO when learning self-defense.

No sir, I'm not talking about my school or my training experience. I have never said anything like "In my school, we do such and such..." I'm talking about most schools that I have visited, and other martial artists that I've met. Most martial artists don't even train with hard contact or against resisting opponents, but they have this false sense of certainty that they can beat a boxer.

Boxers have a saying: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." Martial artists who don't train full contact and against resisting opponents, have a plan until they get clocked. They then typically freeze up. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

By virtue of the fact that boxer hit some, and get hit some, they are better at fighting than your average martial artist.

****AGAIN, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS BOARD'S SCHOOL AND CURRICULUM.****

Perhaps your school is a diamond in the rought, but just visit other schools and you'll see for yourself.

Most schools that I have come across who claim they are teaching self defense, don't have street scenario training, nor do they train full contact and/or against a resisiting opponent.

As martial artists, when we say that we're going to teach people self defense, we have to make sure that is in fact what we're doing. Again, most schools that I have visited who claim they have a self defense curriculum, are teaching ineffective tactics and strategies that will really get their students hurt in the street.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Boxing having a limited arsenal... So? If you're good at fighting at mid-range, then that would be your strong point and if you're good enough, all you need to know.

I was answering what someone else said about the limited arsenal. I didn't say anyone had a limited arsenal, I was saying that since someone had said boxers did, that I would have to say that I did too, since I only studied one system right now.

Originally posted by Carbon

Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.
Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.

That is defeating the entire point of this thread. Thats like saying if you put a TKD person in a Kung Fu forms competition the Kung Fu person would kick his but. Well, of course he would. We are talking about pure fighting, we have mentioned several times about not being in a ring with rules enforced. I'm not saying a boxer can't fight, or couldn't beat any MAist on any given day. I'm saying that at the peak of their training, a boxer against a MA in a fight situation, the MA has an advantage over the boxer. I didn't even say the MA would win every time, just that he has the advantage. Its impossible to say one person would win over another, there are so many differentials.

Originally posted by Zujitsuka

Boxers have a saying: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." Martial artists who don't train full contact and against resisting opponents, have a plan until they get clocked. They then typically freeze up. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
By virtue of the fact that boxer hit some, and get hit some, they are better at fighting than your average martial artist.

I agree with this, what I have been saying is that you have to use two people of the same caliber. The average boxer against the average MAist? Probably. I guess the "average" MAist is the go to class twice a week for fitness. BUT, you put a boxer of extended training against a MAist of extended training, and then you see my point.


7sm

:asian:

 

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by 7starmantis


I agree with this, what I have been saying is that you have to use two people of the same caliber. The average boxer against the average MAist? Probably. I guess the "average" MAist is the go to class twice a week for fitness. BUT, you put a boxer of extended training against a MAist of extended training, and then you see my point.


7sm

:asian:

I agree with your point provided that the martial artist is using the correct methods to train (i.e. full contact for striking, and a resisting opponent for grappling). Othewise, it doesn't matter how much the martial artist is training, or how well conditioned they are. If they can't stand the heat when it comes, their goose is cooked. They will not have the timing, distancing, and calm necessary to win the fight. The only way one can learn to adapt and overcome in a fight is through full-contact and resisting opponents.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon

To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.

I think it is a little petty to start attacking me personaly for my opinion. How do you know what my training regime is? How do you know that I do not currently train against boxers? You have no way of having any idea about any of that, so your continual attacks on me are only making you look like an ***.

Originally posted by Carbon
Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch.

I don't remember braging about anyone. I was saying that my sifu has mastered the technique behind our punches. I didn't say anything about no one else being able to throw well executed punches, neither did I say anything about anyone being special because of their punching. I think you need to calm down just a bit and stop looking for a fight. I'm not insulting you at all, I am simply stating my opinion. If that causes you to take such a personal offense, you should check your reasonings.

7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Carbon

Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.

Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.

Now if you were to put both fighters in the same rules then the boxer would win, now if you let the boxer train to be a well rounded fighter then it comes down who is the better fighter and who is better prepared.

To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.

Even watching amateur fights the people are very sloppy and very undertrained.

Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch.

Yeah, that's basically true.

With the techniques and training methods evolving and the older the art gets, the more effecient for that set of rules it becomes. You can't expect to beat a boxer in a ring if you're not a ring. And you can't expect a boxer to win in a sport TKD competition. You're not going to beat a wrestler on the mat using collegiate rules.

 

[MartialArtist]

Yes, 7starmantis, I knew you were replying to someone else. I was just adding my two pennies with your's.

But who are you to judge the average martial artist? Who is anyone to judge the average martial artist? The average martial artist in the US would be totally different than the average martial artist in a place like Hong Kong or Bangkok for instance.

 

[MartialArtist]

Lots of people know how to punch. But I have only seen a few people who mastered the technique. Once you master the different types of punches and their counterparts/variations, you will know. Mastering the punch, one of the easiest techniques, is actually pretty hard to learn. No, not a jab, but you do develop unmatched power and speed once you master it.

 

[muayThaiPerson]

the winner of a match is determined by the amount of experience. its more less the style then...if u put two guys of the same experiencce size and wieght in the ring, but do differnt arts MA and the other is obviously boxing, who would be the one with the advantage? boxing has the quick punches but the MAist has the kicks and techniques. but less punching ability. who would have the advantage???

i would say the MAist

 

[Carbon]

The point is in the ring where a boxer is meant to fight would beat a MAist because he couldn't kick because that would be against the rules.

I'm sorry but to say just fighting is ignorance in itself for the simple fact that you can't measure the pure "FIGHTING" of one type of training methods, but you could measure the fighting in say a particular fighter against a particular fighter.

Also you say you train with serious boxers? Lol please don't make me laugh. You probably have never even seen a serious boxer. You know one system in your style and you are saying that you now hold the arsenal to destroy a boxer?

I mean what your pretty much putting down is that you are an untrained 7 star mantis practioner that is saying his system with only 1 system learned not even mastered is enough to compete with a boxer.

Don't try to deny it because I've already read it. Also the thing about your sifu is you were posting as if you were so incredibly amazed that your sifu was the sh!* upon sh!* of anyone you've seen this is why I commented it as bragging.

I do agree with MartialArtists views mostly about the discussion going on here. You can't say which fighting system is better end of discussion.

Except if you were in a bar, or an alley, or lets say a bathroom. With the types of styles people here practice that are gear'd towards kicking and have limited striking ability. Oh and lets say you ran into a boxer then you would probably lose a fight in close quarters.

People in real situations your not going to be in an open field getting into a fight with a boxer. Its mostly going to be in a public play with limited room to fight.

 

[Kirk]

Mod. Note

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Kirk

-MT Mod.-

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon

The point is in the ring where a boxer is meant to fight would beat a MAist because he couldn't kick because that would be against the rules.

Well, thats the point of this thread. I think to say in any situation that one particular person will deffinatly beat the other is a little presumptious. What I have been saying if you actually read my posts is that the MAist would have an advantage. IT is rediculous to say this person would win against this person without a doubt.

Also you say you train with serious boxers? Lol please don't make me laugh. You probably have never even seen a serious boxer. You know one system in your style and you are saying that you now hold the arsenal to destroy a boxer?
I mean what your pretty much putting down is that you are an untrained 7 star mantis practioner that is saying his system with only 1 system learned not even mastered is enough to compete with a boxer.

Lets go back and read my post Carbon, I didn't actually say I trained with serious boxers. I'm trying to make a point that you keep jumping to conclusions without anything to support your statements. Now, that aside, yes, I do train once a week with a serious boxer. He has trained in several MA styles including BJJ, MT, KF, and Tai Chi. He has been boxing for the past 2 years. He competes at local, and state levels. Would that be agreeable that he is a serious boxer?

Now lets get to the other accusation you spit out without any knowledge. The fact that I only train in 7*pm now doesn't mean I have never trained in any other system. If you look at my profile, I have been training in Kung Fu since 7 years old. I studied Dragon Kung Fu, and also I studied JKD for 8 years. Now, who are you to determine if I have only begun to learn my system or if I have "mastered" it? You have never even seen me. You know nothing about me. I would not profess to have "mastered" any system, and would be very wary about anyone who claims they have. I would say with that training under my belt, I feel very confident to compete against a serious boxer. I feel confident competing against any serious athlete. I'm not saying I would win against anyone anywhere, I 'm not saying I would win at all, I'm saying I feel confident competing. Lets get back to the topic though, this thread is not about my training or my skill level, it is about two systems. I would believe you consider yourself to be a serious boxer, is that correct? I respect any serious athelete regardless of style, you should too, we are both still athletes regardless of our different styles.

Don't try to deny it because I've already read it. Also the thing about your sifu is you were posting as if you were so incredibly amazed that your sifu was the sh!* upon sh!* of anyone you've seen this is why I commented it as bragging.

I'm not denying anything, there is nothing to deny, please read my profile and previous posts in other threads. I never said my sifu was better than anyone, lets not start making false acusations again. If I am impressed with my sifu or sigungs abilities, what is that to you? Why should that threaten you? Read "MartialArtist's" post above, he agrees about the technique of punching. Once masterd it is a beautiful thing. Saying that someone has mastered punching and is impressive is not saying anyone else has not mastered it. I do not understand why you feel so threatened by my opinions and views. I wasn't bragging I was makign a point that while a serious boxer has mastered the art of punching in his system, my sifu has masterd the art of punching in his system. Both can punch, both punch differently. There is a discussion goign on in a different thread that punchin is punching regardless. True, but the are very different in technique. I was attempting to relate that just because boxers main attack is the punch, does not mean that they are better at punching than another system.

Except if you were in a bar, or an alley, or lets say a bathroom. With the types of styles people here practice that are gear'd towards kicking and have limited striking ability. Oh and lets say you ran into a boxer then you would probably lose a fight in close quarters. People in real situations your not going to be in an open field getting into a fight with a boxer. Its mostly going to be in a public play with limited room to fight.

Thats the thing about my system, we are not geared towards kicking. In 7*pm we are noted for extremely fast and effective hand techniques. All of our techniques are designed to be pulled off in VERY close quarters. We practice our techniques in spaces smaller than an elevator. I think I know more than alot of people how to effectivly handle a confrontation in a confined area. Do some research on my system before you say things that you have no idea about. I think alot of MA systems focus on close quarters. Some more than others, but I believe alot do.

7sm

 

[Carbon]

I believe I said gear'd towards kicking. Lol, I mean you say I make assumptions I said gear'd towards kicking so if your system isn't about kicking then I guess you had no reason to comment huh?

I live in Texas so I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the Boxer you train with or the Sifu you train with. Maybe some day I'll stop by your class and watch you train.

Also a serious boxer is one who has trained in many different styles and has only been boxing for 2 years? No I do not consider this a serious boxer. You yourself said you studied JKD for 8 years? Now if you said this boxer had been boxing for 8 years then maybe I'd be alitle bit more agreeable with his seriousness.

Also its quite easy to say seeing is believing and this is a trait everyone will always have. Especially me over the internet. So until you have some video's of you do anything athletic then I will be doubtful no offense its just the nature of humans.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon

I believe I said gear'd towards kicking. Lol, I mean you say I make assumptions I said gear'd towards kicking so if your system isn't about kicking then I guess you had no reason to comment huh?

Um, I'm not sure what this means, I'm confused.

Originally posted by Carbon
I live in Texas so I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the Boxer you train with or the Sifu you train with. Maybe some day I'll stop by your class and watch you train.

My Sifu is Brandon Jones of Tyler Kung Fu and Fitness
My Sigung is Master Rayomd Fogg who actually used to teach in Dallas, very close to you. You can read about him in Salt For Slugs, a magazine out of Austin. Its online, can't think of the link, but its not hard to find.
My traiing partners name is Christian.
Feel free anytime your in East Texas to stop by my school, I would be happy to work out with you.

Originally posted by Carbon
Also a serious boxer is one who has trained in many different styles and has only been boxing for 2 years? No I do not consider this a serious boxer. You yourself said you studied JKD for 8 years? Now if you said this boxer had been boxing for 8 years then maybe I'd be alitle bit more agreeable with his seriousness.

I'm sorry if he doesn't meet your high standards, he's actually only been competing for 2 years, I don't know how long he has trained in boxing. Do you consider yourself to be a serious boxer ? I'm only asking because if you do, I would be happy to work out with you and see what we each can offer each other. No sarcasm there, its a friendly invite.

Originally posted by Carbon
Also its quite easy to say seeing is believing and this is a trait everyone will always have. Especially me over the internet. So until you have some video's of you do anything athletic then I will be doubtful no offense its just the nature of humans. [/B]

Once again, this thread is not about me or my training, so I do not see a reason to keep goign along this line. Seeing is believeing for alot of people, but I feel no need to prove anything about myself, we are discussing systems here and not personal people. I do appreciate your opinoins though.


7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

I've been boxing since my preteen/teen years.

Carbon is right, in a sense. I would say a boxer would excel in his comfort zone which Carbon said was close-range but I believe it's medium range. Close-range IMO would be elbows, knees, locks, takedowns, etc.

 

[Marginal]

Does Carbon even practice any form of MA at all? (IIRC, he just claimed to read a lot.)

 

[Carbon]

I don't know what IIRC means.....but in MA no? Do I box? Yes I do.

Am I a serious boxer no, since I'm young and there is no reason for me to devote all my time to boxing since its what I do to try and stay in shape along with cardio and lifting workouts.

I am in the process of joining American Kenpo Karate.

What I meant 7th was that I was meaning that close quarter fights for kicking arts would be hard to defend against a boxer.

 

[MartialArtist]

Well, of course you are going to have some bias then. My suggestion is if you want a clearer view of the martial arts and how hard they train, go to Asia. It will change your view completely. So don't think your little world and experience is what's true in other regions. Just in the US, I'm betting the average Joe could beat the average Mickey D MAist in the US. Not so true elsewhere.

 

[Carbon]

You can't compare a communist society.

I mean come on they have no choices over anything and they are psycho disciplined. They live their lives just getting disciplined over and over whether it be at the MA school or at there house.

I would never want to live or go to asia for the simple fact that its chaos.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon

You can't compare a communist society.

I mean come on they have no choices over anything and they are psycho disciplined. They live their lives just getting disciplined over and over whether it be at the MA school or at there house.

I would never want to live or go to asia for the simple fact that its chaos.

You really are young aren't you. Asia is by no means chaos. This is what stereotypes do to people. You believe everyone in asia if forced to practice MA and that is all they do. People who have not studied think this all the time. And you are saying Asia is a communist society? I didn't know Asia was any society, but many. You really should broaden your mind. I have never seen beauty like there is in China. Just one comparison of the difference is in classes here we condition by holding the horse stance for 5 or 6 minutes in class. There they show up hours before class to be the first person there, and they hold horse stance uintil class starts, then the first hour of class is the horse stance. I've never seen more dedication and intetnsive training in my life then when we went to China.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Carbon

I am in the process of joining American Kenpo Karate.

"Process" ??? What process are you talking about? Ya sign the
contract, you give him your money and it's done. What's up?