boxing stance

[lklawson]

This is the first that I’ve heard/read about a “boxing club teaching a fencing stance”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:John_L_Sullivan.jpg

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

My coach was simply comparing the stances of a boxer vs a stance of a fencer.

Modernized Fencing for the most part is linear. I heard however the older "combat" fencing utilized circular AND linear attack forms (in regards to footwork)

This is true, sorta. Modern sport/olympic fencing is far different in many important ways from Classical Fencing. The stances were somewhat different, often, and there was a great deal of non-linear movement. But the stances and footwork weren't always similar. Some were, some were not. Certain classical knife fighting stances (such as Navaja) were more similar to a squared off modern boxing stance.

For instance, go look at Hope's New Method of fencing (as an extreme example). About the only similarity is the shoulders squared stance. Agrippa and some of the Itallian Rapier guys might be closer but we're stretching my knowledge of Classical Rapier/Classical Fencing.

So the older fencing stance is like today's boxing stance.

Except for how it isn't.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

This is totally wrong!

I’m not up on the history of fencing stances and how they relate to boxing but I will say again, this is the first that I’ve heard/read about fencing stances in boxing.

In the 17th & 18th Century, it was fairly common. Fencing methods and Boxing methods were taught together as an integrated system. Boxing was sometimes thought of as "Fencing with Fists."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

just wanted to say that anybody, and i mean anybody, can learn a lot from watching a boxer's footwork.

You'd think, but that isn't nessasarily so.

Aside from the basics of moving (move the foot closest to the direction you're going first), it doesn't always apply. This is particularly true for bladed weapons.

If you try to "give point" with a sword or a knife the way you throw a (modern boxing) punch, you're going to die on your opponent's blade. The closest "safe" analog would be a rabbit punch or a lighting-fast jab. There's no place for knock-out power in blade work. And boxing footwork is a major element of knockout power.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of boxing footwork, but it just doesn't always apply. It's not near universal. (Works well for stick-fighting though.)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Older styles of boxing almost always pointed the lead toe at the opponent(don't forget Muay Thai does this as well) for several reasons....one of which is the fact that standing wrestling was permitted. This style of wrestling used alot of leg trips and hooks making the toe forward a bit more usable...also linear punch was alot more popular in the older styles since the distance people fought at was larger due to the fact that grappling was allowed.

Another factor is power generation...Although not seen too much now, the drop step was used extensively by the early bareknucklers. Drop step and an inward aligned lead toe could lead to a twisted or even possibly broken ankle. See Dempseys manual for more info on the drop/falling or trigger step(as you prefer to call it)

Boxing stances have changed over the years, mostly due to rules but also just out of shear fashion and what was popular or unpopular with the crowds....late LPR rules is where you see most of the fencing like stances. Personally I can't stand to fight like that but i havve seen some people do a fairly good job from a fencing stance....not modern boxing of course but still workable if you apply it and understand it.

Drat.

I shoulda knowed Ken would beat me to this thread. [pouting]

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Here's what Fox's Atheletic Library Police Gazette had to say,

One of the most essential things now is to stand firmly upon
the feet in a position to get about quickly and safelyâ€"slow legs are
as much to the detriment of success as slow hands. One must be
always ready to use his feet to retreat and to advance, or to quickly
step into position. In this position the toes of the right foot must
be directly behind and in a line with the left heel.
Easily balanced on your feet, the right arm should be across
the "mark" (that point where the ribs begin to arch), the hand
being an inch below the left breast. To obtain the exact position
of the left arm, advance the left shoulder, drop the arm by the side,
and then raise the forearm until the hand is on a level with the
elbow. In sparring it should be worked easily forward and back-
ward. Throw the right shoulder well back and slightly sink it, so
that of the two the left shoulder is the higher. I Lower the chin,
turn the face a little to the right, and bend the head slightly over
the right shoulder. The object of turning the face is to prevent
both eyes being hit at once, while the head is bent to the right in
order that it may not be directly in a line with your opponent‘sleft
hand, and thus afford him an easy target.
Some consideration must be given to the position of the
hands. They must be tightly clinched. If this precaution is not
observed the force of the blow is diminished and a sprained or
otherwise injured wrist would be the penalty involved. The left
hand, in the position to lead at the head, should be closed with the
palm upwards, the arm almost perfectly straight, with the elbow
turned up.

​

Associated pics:

Fox's pic to go along with above text

Allanson-Winn

Diagram from Allanson-Winn

See also some of the pics from the "which knuckles" thread.

You get the idea.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Just added a few more historic pics illustrating the evolution of the stance in Boxing.

First:

Mendoza vs. Humphries - demonstrates Broughton era style stances - from Mendoza's "Lessons" on boxing. Courtesy of the Linacre School of Defense

Second:

Broughton era style stance from Owen Swift's "Boxing"

Third:

London Prize-ring Rules style stance from Owen Swift's "Boxing"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk