Bong gerk vs Tan gerk

[Kwan Sau]

Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...

Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
Or, is it simply a matter of where on your own leg (Bong gerk / Tan gerk) intercepts the opponents leg that makes it one or the other?
Welcome any discussion...thx gents.

 

[geezer]

Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...

Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
Or, is it simply a matter of where on your own leg (Bong gerk / Tan gerk) intercepts the opponents leg that makes it one or the other?
Welcome any discussion...thx gents.

I've met pratctitoners who are are just "naturals" with their legs, or who grew up playing soccer/football or hackey sack and are much more comfortable with lead-leg fighting, using their legs a lot more actively than I do. In my personal WC I do better to keep my legs on the ground as much as I can. The following videoclip by Alex Richter (same lineage, different organization) pretty much agrees with my perspective on Bong and Tan Gherk.

 

[Vajramusti]

Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...

Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
Or, is it simply a matter of where on your own leg (Bong gerk / Tan gerk) intercepts the opponents leg that makes it one or the other?
Welcome any discussion...thx gents.

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Paralleling the hands- legs can also have bong, tan and fook gerk- among other leg formations-sui, jut etc---
depends on what side of the leg structure is being used. Close quarters work where hands are touching.
Yes- the interception area is the key.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I've met pratctitoners who are are just "naturals" with their legs, or who grew up playing soccer/football or hackey sack and are much more comfortable with lead-leg fighting, using their legs a lot more actively than I do. In my personal WC I do better to keep my legs on the ground as much as I can. The following videoclip by Alex Richter (same lineage, different organization) pretty much agrees with my perspective on Bong and Tan Gherk.

Thx Geezer.
So, in your (Alex's) lineage...the Tan gerk is differentiated by whether the knee is rotated outward (Tan gerk) vs inward (Bong gerk)? Am I understanding your video clip correctly?

 

[Kwan Sau]

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Paralleling the hands- legs can also have bong, tan and fook gerk- among other leg formations-sui, jut etc---
depends on what side of the leg structure is being used. Close quarters work where hands are touching.
Yes- the interception area is the key.

Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?

 

[geezer]

Thx Geezer.
So, in your (Alex's) lineage...the Tan gerk is differentiated by whether the knee is rotated outward (Tan gerk) vs inward (Bong gerk)? Am I understanding your video clip correctly?

I look at the leg positions as roughly analogous to the hand positions, like Joy stated above. So when there is an opeing I go forward, if I encounter a leg attack, I lift my knee (wu gherk), if the attack is on the outside of my leg it may press my leg into tan gherk, or if it is on the inside it may press my leg into a bong gherk, but my real goal is to intercept and kick/strike. Basically just "Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung" ...applied to stance, steps, hands and legs.

 

[Danny T]

Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?

And the knee may or may not be outward based upon the situation.

 

[Kwan Sau]

And the knee may or may not be outward based upon the situation.

Thanks Danny.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I encounter a leg attack, ...

You can use it as your "enter strategy" as well. When you have right side forward and your opponent has

- right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your inward leg
- left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your outward leg

to jam your opponent's leading leg. You can then add a "scoop" to take him down.

 

[Kwan Sau]

You can use it as your "enter strategy" as well. When you have right side forward and your opponent has

- right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your inward leg
- left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your outward leg

to jam your opponent's leading leg. You can then add a "scoop" to take him down.

Yes, I am aware of this. Thx.
This is more to do with terminology and shape, not entering. Thx for your input though.

 

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?

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Lord Kwan
The knee joint will be somewhat equivalent to the elbow. Just as bong sao is on the pinkie side of the hand bridge, so bong gerk wil be on the little toe side of the foot bridge. Tan sao is on the thumb side and for tan gerk the knee will rotate to have the bridge on the big toe side of the bridge.

Confederate dollars are in the mail(g)

 

[Kwan Sau]

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Lord Kwan
The knee joint will be somewhat equivalent to the elbow. Just as bong sao is on the pinkie side of the hand bridge, so bong gerk wil be on the little toe side of the foot bridge. Tan sao is on the thumb side and for tan gerk the knee will rotate to have the bridge on the big toe side of the bridge.

Confederate dollars are in the mail(g)

Excellent. Thanks for the feedback Sri Swami Vaj! ;-)

 

[geezer]

I'm not sure if our way of doing bong/tan gherk is the same as Joy's (Vajramusdi) or not. His big toe-little toe analogy left me a little confused. However, like him we also view the leg and knee as analogous to the arm and elbow, but upside down ...like a p is to a b if you get my drift.

For example, if you stand on one leg with the knee raised and foot slightly extended while positioning the same side arm in a tan sau you will see that they "mirror" each other. And, just as a tan-sau (spreading-hand) most commonly deflects incoming attacks to the outside, so the tan-gherk (spreading-leg) deflects to the outside.

On the other hand with bong-sau, the elbow typically rolls over and deflects attacks across the body to the opposite side. So too with our bong-gherk, the knee rolls inward and deflects the attack across to the opposite side.

In either case, I prefer to stick and deflect using as little movement as possible, slipping free and converting either tan or bong gherk into a counter-kick or intruding step at the first opportunity. The kind of chi-gherk style "leg fencing" some experts love to demonstrate is a very risky approach in my book. Looks great though.

 

[Thunder Foot]

We also have the tan and bong gerk used as demo'd in close quarters. We usually follow with a kick to the support leg.
We also use a lan version.
As for long distance, we believe the techs have just as much merit as we look to also answer those we can't go straight in on. In those cases, we believe stepping in to block with the knee is added assurance as opposed to potentially getting kicked. dummy form.
The frontal kick defense we also have a similar response for an option... but I suppose we do the tan gerk and yup gerk simultaneously.

 

[ShortBridge]

My lineage (Duncan Leung) has both bong gerk and tan gerk and also lan gerk, which differs from tan by energy and application, more than shape.

 

[Kwan Sau]

My lineage (Duncan Leung) has both bong gerk and tan gerk and also lan gerk, which differs from tan by energy and application, more than shape.

Thx. So, does your knee location change between the two? (ie Tan vs bong gerk?)

 

[ShortBridge]

I watched most of that video. It's hard to not react to the words people use. Let me say that I think I mostly agree with what's he's communicating. There are a few things that might challenge or express differently if he and I were sitting down for a soda pop, but if I ignore the linguistic differences of how we talk about this, I'm pretty much consistent with what he's demonstrating.

Does my knee position move between bong gerk and tan gerk? Yes, but it's really not about that. It has much more to do with intent and expression of each position.

Maybe if I understood better what you were trying to understand or resolve, I could be less oblique. It it just about the name that goes with the shape or something else?

I still photo of lan gerk would actually look a more similar to tan gerk than bong gerk does, but a video of them would appear quite different.

What if I asked: What is the difference between a pak sao and a palm strike?

 

[geezer]

I watched most of that video. It's hard to not react to the words people use. Let me say that I think I mostly agree with what's he's communicating. There are a few things that might challenge or express differently if he and I were sitting down for a soda pop, but if I ignore the linguistic differences of how we talk about this, I'm pretty much consistent with what he's demonstrating....

Yea, differences of terminology between different groups, even within the Yip Man lineage can make verbal or written communication tough. Even more so for people (like me) that don't speak Cantonese. Heck, I even have trouble with that term soda pop. Do you mean a sweet carbonated beverage?

 

[ShortBridge]

... Heck, I even have trouble with that term soda pop. Do you mean a sweet carbonated beverage?

You know, that stuff that the jerk pulls from the fountain when you're stepping out with your gal?

 

[geezer]

You know, that stuff that the jerk pulls from the fountain when you're stepping out with your gal?

So you do speak geezer (aka old-phart)! Much respect. Anyway it's good to have you posting here on Martial Talk. It's always good to have another informed perspective.

Now back to that Lan Gerk. I would understand that as a "bar-leg" based on lan-sau being translated as "bar arm". Do you apply it as a block, a deflection, or as a strike? What is it's intent?