bodybuilding and marshal arts

[jobo]

reading the other thread about bb and self defence, it occurred to me that many marshal artists are some what sniffy about big muscles and trot out a lot of the ussual clichés about muscles not equalling strengh, it making you slow, having weak cores, not being functional strengh, that their skill will over come big muscles etc etc .
I think that a certain amount of that is envy, a way of rationalizing their lack of muscles.

but as you age bodybuilding of some sort becomes a necessity . From mid to late 30s onwards males will lose 1% of their muscle mass a year, an averagely proportioned young male will have say 90 to 100 lbs of muscle, so that's about a pound a year. You need to put on a pound of muscle just to stand still. Or if you step on the scales and find you have gained 7 lbs in the last year. That's actually 8 lbs of fat and one lb of lost muscle.

It makes next to no difference year on year, losing 1% off you biceps and 1% off you calves will have only a minimal effect on your strengh and muscle tone. . But over a decade you've lost ten % and now that's a major loss to both strengh and aesthetics', and your pecs have been replaced by man boobs.

the loss is more acute if you decided to lose some weight, a low carb diet will encourage you body to burn protein which is easier to access than fat and it takes the protein from the muscles, diminishing their size even more.

by the time your in you mid 50s (like me) then is quite possible that you have lost over a quarter of you muscle mass.

It can be deceptive, you can train your body to be more efficient, so you can do the same with less but only up to a certain point. if you work with you hands you might have maintained the mucles in your arms and so still have a good grip, but the muscles that control you posture are wasted and you start to stoop. A lot of the age related problems with flexability/mobility are to do with a loss of strengh though diminishing muscles

of Couse just to compound matters you have to work harder for longer as you age to put on/ replace muscle.and you have to gain two just to get one

So in,short you need a body building programme just just to maintain your muscle mass and therefore posture and MA performance. Old age sucks

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's rather curious. In the West people seem to be obsessed with getting big arm muscles and lots of upper body strength, whereas in the East (particularly in China) they focus more on flexibility and core strength. As a result a lot of western body builders have very well defined pecs and arms, and spindly legs, while the Chinese have more flexible bodies and thin, whip-like arms.

In terms of Martial Arts, these body styles correspond to the local Martial Arts. In the West the primary Martial Art is Boxing, relying more on upper body strength than anything else, while most Chinese Martial Arts require more leg strength and flexibility to get into the low stances, and fast whippy arm movements.

 

[jobo]

It's rather curious. In the West people seem to be obsessed with getting big arm muscles and lots of upper body strength, whereas in the East (particularly in China) they focus more on flexibility and core strength. As a result a lot of western body builders have very well defined pecs and arms, and spindly legs, while the Chinese have more flexible bodies and thin, whip-like arms.

In terms of Martial Arts, these body styles correspond to the local Martial Arts. In the West the primary Martial Art is Boxing, relying more on upper body strength than anything else, while most Chinese Martial Arts require more leg strength and flexibility to get into the low stances, and fast whippy arm movements.

I haven't traveled widely enough to know if that's true, I have certainly seen a fare few eastern. Chaps with particularly well developed muscles. But I suppose a MA is likely to have been developed to suit the prevailing body type in that area. But then a fly weight boxer is all core strengh and wippy arms as well. Body builders by defintion don't have spindly legs, your thinking of half body builders. My point was you have to body build to prevent your legs from becoming more spindly

 

[Danny T]

There is a huge difference in 'Strength Training' and 'Body Building'.
Body Builders do gain strength however the 'Look' is greater than the associated strength.
Strength Training in contrast focuses not on size but on actually increasing the strength of the body as a whole. Strength development doesn't increase the size of the muscle in relation to Body Building however the muscle will be functionally stronger...can work harder and for a longer period of time. Body Building uses a method which causes hypertrophy to the muscles. This creates microscopic tears in the muscle, forcing the body to repair the muscles which in turn increases the size of the muscle but doesn't increase the strength of the muscle at the same rate.

 

[Headhunter]

reading the other thread about bb and self defence, it occurred to me that many marshal artists are some what sniffy about big muscles and trot out a lot of the ussual clichés about muscles not equalling strengh, it making you slow, having weak cores, not being functional strengh, that their skill will over come big muscles etc etc .
I think that a certain amount of that is envy, a way of rationalizing their lack of muscles.

but as you age bodybuilding of some sort becomes a necessity . From mid to late 30s onwards males will lose 1% of their muscle mass a year, an averagely proportioned young male will have say 90 to 100 lbs of muscle, so that's about a pound a year. You need to put on a pound of muscle just to stand still. Or if you step on the scales and find you have gained 7 lbs in the last year. That's actually 8 lbs of fat and one lb of lost muscle.

It makes next to no difference year on year, losing 1% off you biceps and 1% off you calves will have only a minimal effect on your strengh and muscle tone. . But over a decade you've lost ten % and now that's a major loss to both strengh and aesthetics', and your pecs have been replaced by man boobs.

the loss is more acute if you decided to lose some weight, a low carb diet will encourage you body to burn protein which is easier to access than fat and it takes the protein from the muscles, diminishing their size even more.

by the time your in you mid 50s (like me) then is quite possible that you have lost over a quarter of you muscle mass.

It can be deceptive, you can train your body to be more efficient, so you can do the same with less but only up to a certain point. if you work with you hands you might have maintained the mucles in your arms and so still have a good grip, but the muscles that control you posture are wasted and you start to stoop. A lot of the age related problems with flexability/mobility are to do with a loss of strengh though diminishing muscles

of Couse just to compound matters you have to work harder for longer as you age to put on/ replace muscle.and you have to gain two just to get one

So in,short you need a body building programme just just to maintain your muscle mass and therefore posture and MA performance. Old age sucks

No you don't..plain and simple you don't need bodybuilding at all. If you want to do it fine but it's absolutely not necessary

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is there a reason you keep calling it marshal arts instead of martial arts? It's a small thing, but you keep doing it and it throws me off every time I see it.

 

[Steve]

One of my neighbors trains for strongman competitions. He's not a huge guy, but he's strong as a bull. Was helping him do some work on his house and the guy just moves things around (heavy things) like they're nothing. I can easily see how his workout regime, including weightlifting, translates to martial arts.

A couple of general thoughts: First, I've rolled with guys who look strong but don't feel strong, and guys who look weak but aren't. Coordination alone can influence functional strength. How good are you at engaging your core and using your entire body vs muscling someone around with your arms or legs.

Second, strength isn't a requirement for martial arts, but it sure helps. It's one of several ingredients that we all bring to the table outside of technique. Others include athleticism, coordination, intelligence, body awareness, and flexibility. Strength isn't going to replace technique, but all other things being equal, it's good to be strong.

last thought is that I think Jobo uses the term bodybuilding to refer to people who are really dedicated to weightlifting. That's my impression. When I think of a bodybuilder, I think of a guy who is training specifically to compete. But there are a lot of dudes (and dudettes) who lift weights for strength, and to look good. Not just to look good.

 

[Steve]

Is there a reason you keep calling it marshal arts instead of martial arts? It's a small thing, but you keep doing it and it throws me off every time I see it.

I just thought he was referring to what they teach the air marshalls, so they can beat up elderly men on United airline flights.

 

[jobo]

Is there a reason you keep calling it marshal arts instead of martial arts? It's a small thing, but you keep doing it and it throws me off every time I see it.

its the auto correct on this phone

 

[jobo]

its the auto correct on this phone

but people keep spelling be neibours and colour wrong, but I just let it go

 

[Tez3]

but people keep spelling be neibours and colour wrong, but I just let it go

And you think that is the correct way to spell neighbours?

I take it you are 'jobo' and not 'BoJo' aka Boris Johnson?

 

[Steve]

It's not the spelling around here that bugs me. It's the pronunciation. Drop Bear's accent is awful. And your's, jobo. I can't understand a word your spelling, your accent is so thick!

 

[jobo]

It's not the spelling around here that bugs me. It's the pronunciation. Drop Bear's accent is awful. And your's, jobo. I can't understand a word your spelling, your accent is so thick!

yes its quite thick manc , if that makes any sense, a bit like oasis?

 

[jobo]

There is a huge difference in 'Strength Training' and 'Body Building'.
Body Builders do gain strength however the 'Look' is greater than the associated strength.
Strength Training in contrast focuses not on size but on actually increasing the strength of the body as a whole. Strength development doesn't increase the size of the muscle in relation to Body Building however the muscle will be functionally stronger...can work harder and for a longer period of time. Body Building uses a method which causes hypertrophy to the muscles. This creates microscopic tears in the muscle, forcing the body to repair the muscles which in turn increases the size of the muscle but doesn't increase the strength of the muscle at the same rate.

no that's not how muscles grow, tears are only the smallest pathway, there are perhaps half a dozen different ways that mucles grow, consult wikipedia for an in depth overview. The main ones seem to be the mtor pathway and metabolic stress. They both reply on the nervous system growing the muscles to meet the increased demand. That is it grows the muscle to be stronger. That's why muscle growth depends on progressive overload, what you could lift last month doesn't stress your body enough, so this month you have to lift more, ie your stronger. So last month i was lifting 200 lbs 10 times to failure. This month failure demands 220 x 10 ot 200 x 12That means I'm stronger than I was and my muscles are bigger .
I've just taken my dog in the park and done a few pull ups. First set to failure x ten, that's muscle growth number, second third and 4th set x5 that's strengh reps, sp I've come back wiyh bigger muscles and some what stronger

 

[jobo]

One of my neighbors trains for strongman competitions. He's not a huge guy, but he's strong as a bull. Was helping him do some work on his house and the guy just moves things around (heavy things) like they're nothing. I can easily see how his workout regime, including weightlifting, translates to martial arts.

A couple of general thoughts: First, I've rolled with guys who look strong but don't feel strong, and guys who look weak but aren't. Coordination alone can influence functional strength. How good are you at engaging your core and using your entire body vs muscling someone around with your arms or legs.

Second, strength isn't a requirement for martial arts, but it sure helps. It's one of several ingredients that we all bring to the table outside of technique. Others include athleticism, coordination, intelligence, body awareness, and flexibility. Strength isn't going to replace technique, but all other things being equal, it's good to be strong.

last thought is that I think Jobo uses the term bodybuilding to refer to people who are really dedicated to weightlifting. That's my impression. When I think of a bodybuilder, I think of a guy who is training specifically to compete. But there are a lot of dudes (and dudettes) who lift weights for strength, and to look good. Not just to look good.

your last paragraph sums it up nicely, people on here seem to make up their own defintion to support any argument they see fit. Body building is any exercise that builds the body. Not just some narrow defintion that makes them feel better at being a) over weight and b) with out muscle tone

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

your last paragraph sums it up nicely, people on here seem to make up their own defintion to support any argument they see fit. Body building is any exercise that builds the body. Not just some narrow defintion that makes them feel better at being a) over weight and b) with out muscle tone

Not to support any argument, but the disagreements come from how you view a term. Bodybuilding in terms of competition isn't really functional strength and long term good for you. Building your body, on the other hand, is great.

 

[jobo]

Not to support any argument, but the disagreements come from how you view a term. Bodybuilding in terms of competition isn't really functional strength and long term good for you. Building your body, on the other hand, is great.

but that's just a cliche, lifting ridiculasly heavy weight isn't good for you long term , but people seem to be in support of strengh training, in what way is developing the size of your muscles unhealthy?

if someone is doing let's say pull up for muscle growth in what way is that not functional strengh they have developed when they go from 5 to 20 reps

 

[Steve]

yes its quite thick manc , if that makes any sense, a bit like oasis?

When I was much younger, in the 80s, there were several bands that had a pretty distinctive sound. I don't know if they were actually from Manchester. The Smiths, and then Morrissey went solo, Joy Division and New Order were considered 'New Wave' bands, along with ABC. After I went into the military in 1989, while in Germany, I stumbled on several more Manchester bands, like Charlatans UK, Blur, and The Stone Roses and 808 State (which I thought was American for a long time, because of the name).

Point is, none of them could speak English.

 

[kuniggety]

I don't think anyone here (or in their right mind) would argue that strength training isn't beneficial to martial arts. I think the argument here is your insistence on using the term body building. I've been around the body building scene, having known several body builders. It all depends on what the goal is of your training. Is it to build large well defined muscles? That's body building. Is it to exert explosive or sustained amounts of force in the form of moving weights? That's strength training. Will you naturally get some degrees of strength by body building? Yes. Will you naturally get more defined and sometimes larger muscles by strength training? Yes, they're not mutually exclusive but as the same time they're not the same thing.

I would argue that something like pull ups are functional strength. You won't get large puffy muscles from pull ups.

 

[jobo]

I don't think anyone here (or in their right mind) would argue that strength training isn't beneficial to martial arts. I think the argument here is your insistence on using the term body building. I've been around the body building scene, having known several body builders. It all depends on what the goal is of your training. Is it to build large well defined muscles? That's body building. Is it to exert explosive or sustained amounts of force in the form of moving weights? That's strength training. Will you naturally get some degrees of strength by body building? Yes. Will you naturally get more defined and sometimes larger muscles by strength training? Yes, they're not mutually exclusive but as the same time they're not the same thing.

I would argue that something like pull ups are functional strength. You won't get large puffy muscles from pull ups.

so your just imposing your own defintion on preceding's. At least you are conceeding that body builder may have some strengh

why don't you believe pull ups will grow muscle? I'm lifting 200 lbs ten times( at the moment) thats a reasonable weight and I'm do muscle growth level reps, and my muscles are notably growing